GC: What are "sex-based" rights?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]strictly 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

That's why I don't understand why GC is reluctant to include trans women in their activism

I remember on r/FTM one trans guy posted his wife is a trans woman and he doesn't nearly experience the same harassment she does when going out in public.

You answer your own question. You admit there are biological females (some who are man-identifying) who don't experience the same type of struggles the woman-identifying male in your anecdote experiences. I am a biological female and I have luckily never been sexually harassed either. A woman-identifying male having had an awful experience I haven’t doesn’t immediately make me relate to the struggles of the woman-identifying male. You take it for granted that it wouldn't make sense for man-identifying females to group with woman-identifying males under feminism as some man-identifying females don’t experience street harassment and some woman-identifying males do etc. What is true for man-identifying females is also true for other biological females. Being harassed in the street is not a unifying biological female experience as some have been harassed and some haven’t, the only thing all biological females have in common is being of the female reproductive sex. It would make as little sense for us to group with woman-identifying males as it does for man-identifying females to group with woman-identifying males as neither of us share reproductive sex with these woman-identifying males.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

I am a biological female and I have luckily never been sexually harassed either.

Are you a trans man? I am a cis woman and I have been sexually harassed multiple times in public. I live in a large, populous city so maybe that makes a difference. My male friends, including trans men do not experience sexual harassment in public but the trans men I am friends with said they did experience it prior to passing.

What is true for man-identifying females is also true for other biological females.

From what I've read from trans men half the time they are treated like men half the time they are treated like women. I gave examples in this very thread.

[–]strictly 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Are you a trans man?

I have quite standard physical features for a biological female.

I live in a large, populous city so maybe that makes a difference.

Sexual harassment and sexual assaults is statistically high where I live compared to comparable places but the specific type of street harassment you refer to might be less common. I've luckily not experienced other types of sexual harassment either though.

From what I've read from trans men half the time they are treated like men half the time they are treated like women. I gave examples in this very thread.

According the data I’ve seen the sexual victimization rate of man-identifying females is higher than of other biological females and higher than the sexual victimization rate of woman-identifying males too (both in childhood and adulthood). Man-identifying females would therefore on average have a greater capacity to relate to sexually harassed woman-identifying males than other biological females would be able to relate to sexually harassed woman-identifying males. Regarding the other things you mention, the type of sexism woman-identifying males say they endure has as of yet not been the type of sexism I personally encounter in my life so I can’t personally relate to it. It’s also uncertain that the root cause of the discrimination they face would be the same, they might not look like biological females, or they aren’t in stealth and don’t pass as biological females for that reason. If their biological sex is known they don't get treated as biological females, they usually get treated as feminine biological males and I’m neither of those things. Regarding your anecdotes from man-identifying females, they seem to report that the type of sexism I encounter the most increased after transitioning. I haven’t really experienced that men would filter out what they think about women, I hear men openly say misogynistic things all the time. They trash talk women and want me to join in and get upset when I refuse.

Anyway, my point is, just because someone is a biological female it doesn't mean the biological female is automatically going to be able to relate to woman-identifying males. The only thing all biological females have in common is being biological female, and we don’t have that in common with woman-identifying males. It’s true we share human adult struggles with them but we share human adult struggles with all human adults, including adult males who don’t identify as women, so there is no reason to group with woman-identifying males in particular.

[–]adungitit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Sexual harassment and sexual assaults is statistically high where I live compared to comparable places but the specific type of street harassment you refer to might be less common.

Do you go out much?

I haven’t really experienced that men would filter out what they think about women, I hear men openly say misogynistic things all the time. They trash talk women and want me to join in and get upset when I refuse.

This has been my experience as well, which is why I try to avoid friendships with men. Thinking about it, I imagine men only do this kind of filtering when they're in more equal environments like certain jobs that don't tolerate it, and environments with more equal gender ratios, due to the backlash. I can only imagine that the women who are surprised at the misogyny that men uncover around them might've surrounded themselves with liberal men and assumed that these men are not misogynists, like most women assume (and then get burned by). Moreover, men expecting high-fives for their misogyny doesn't mean they see you as male, it just means they think you also agree that women are subhuman, and as we all know, history is rife with women having to put up with this due to patriarchal norms.

It’s true we share human adult struggles with them but we share human adult struggles with all human adults, including adult males who don’t identify as women, so there is no reason to group with woman-identifying males in particular.

I feel that's like saying effeminate and weak straight men who get bullied for being gay must also be gay. Sure, both might suffer the effects of homophobia, but that doesn't make them the same thing.

[–]strictly 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Do you go out much?

I’m not a party person but if you simply mean meeting people or being outside I think I’m about average in that aspect.

This has been my experience as well, which is why I try to avoid friendships with men.

I’m not friends with people I find unpleasant but I don’t care about the biological sex of the potential friend.

I imagine men only do this kind of filtering when they're in more equal environments like certain jobs that don't tolerate it, and environments with more equal gender ratios, due to the backlash.

That is what I think too.

Moreover, men expecting high-fives for their misogyny doesn't mean they see you as male, it just means they think you also agree that women are subhuman

lol, yeah, if they rant about other female people they are probably ranting about you too when you aren’t around. Hearing men making fun of female people on testosterone isn’t uncommon either and they aren’t using male-pronouns for them while doing so. In front of a known female person on testosterone they might censor their thoughts on that subgroup of female people and say sexist things about other female people instead.

I feel that's like saying effeminate and weak straight men who get bullied for being gay must also be gay. Sure, both might suffer the effects of homophobia, but that doesn't make them the same thing.

With adult human struggles I was referring to adult human struggles that are common to most adult humans, my point was that I don’t feel something uniquely in common with someone just because they share a struggle with me if most humans also share that struggle. Regarding your point, I thought about bringing that up but was lazy, but I agree. The homophobia a straight man who is mistaken for a gay man faces would feel less personal as he knows the homophobia was misdirected.