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[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (53 children)

Wow, all this time....all natal females had to do to avoid being oppressed was dress differently. Too bad we were apparently too stupid to figure that out.

That's not what I said. Gender presentation =/= dress. Gender presentation is your skin, your voice, amount of facial hair, etc. Whatever sex you pass as and are perceived as. Unless you are trans, it's unreasonable to expect you to change your appearance to appear a different sex. I experienced sexism as a cis woman, and my solution is to fight sexism, not to change my appearance.

Most trans men transition due to dysphoria, not to escape sexism. Many trans men say that themselves.

Feminist Trans Men & the Narrative of Internalized Misogyny

I want to die... confused, scared, am I manipulating myself?

The idea that trans men are “lesbians in denial” is demeaning and wrong

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (35 children)

I experienced sexism as a cis woman, and my solution is to fight sexism, not to change my appearance.

Could've fooled me! Sorry, Genderbender, but the views you've expressed in your posting history come across as extremely sexist. As outrageously sexist, in fact.

The views you have expressed also give the very strong impression that you have deep-seated dislike of, disdain for, and animus towards girls and women - and that you want to create a world in which no one will be allowed any rights and accommodations that take sex into account.

Your way of "fighting sexism" seems to be to deny that sex matters - or when you do acknowledge that sex is real and does sometimes matter, your tack is to minimize how much it matters and to gloss over and refuse to see or address most of the RL situations in which it matters. Frankly, your views frighten me.

Gender presentation is your skin, your voice, amount of facial hair, etc. Whatever sex you pass as and are perceived as.

How can a female human fetus change its skin, voice, amount of facial hair etc so as to "pass as" and be "perceived as" male and thus escape being subjected to sex-selective abortion on account of being female? How can a fetus change its voice or amount of facial hair when fetuses can't speak and don't have facial hair?

Please share the ways you've found that are successful in hiding fetal sex from sonogram machines and genetic screening.

By your misogynistic, reeking-of-privilege, elitist "reasoning," girls in Africa wouldn't be subjected to FGM if only they had the prescience and intelligence to wear fake beards and mustaches, and to lower their voices when they scream.

[–]adungitit 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Your way of "fighting sexism" seems to be to deny that sex matters - or when you do acknowledge that sex is real and does sometimes matter, your tack is to minimize how much it matters and to gloss over and refuse to see or address most of the RL situations in which it matters.

Sounds like standard liberal feminism to me.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (33 children)

Could've fooled me! Sorry, Genderbender, but the views you've expressed in your posting history come across as extremely sexist. As outrageously sexist, in fact.

It makes sense you see my posts that way because you're GC. Most mainstream feminist subreddits and other feminist and social justice groups see gender critical posts as outrageously sexist.

Your way of "fighting sexism" seems to be to deny that sex matters - or when you do acknowledge that sex is real and does sometimes matter, your tack is to minimize how much it matters and to gloss over and refuse to see or address most of the RL situations in which it matters. Frankly, your views frighten me.

I believe sex matters in terms of biological functions, for instance abortion rights and menstrual pad access. However I otherwise don't believe sex matters. For instance I think restrooms and changing rooms should be gender neutral. How do my views frighten you? I'm not in any position of power and GCs say most people agree with them.

How can a female human fetus change its skin, voice, amount of facial hair etc so as to "pass as" and be "perceived as" male and thus escape being subjected to sex-selective abortion on account of being female? How can a fetus change its voice or amount of facial hair when fetuses can't speak and don't have facial hair?

Please share the ways you've found that are successful in hiding fetal sex from sonogram machines and genetic screening.

Lol fetuses can't change their gender. You do that when you're older.

By your misogynistic, reeking-of-privilege, elitist "reasoning," girls in Africa wouldn't be subjected to FGM if only they had the prescience and intelligence to wear fake beards and mustaches, and to lower their voices when they scream.

That's not what I said. I said although people AFAB are mostly treated like men, they will still be subject to issues specific fo people AFAB.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Most mainstream feminist subreddits and other feminist and social justice groups see gender critical posts as outrageously sexist

Exactly how much of your understanding of how the general population views these topics is based on Reddit and other online forums?

Because…

Nevermind the because lol but I am curious about your answer.

[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Exactly how much of your understanding of how the general population views these topics is based on Reddit and other online forums?

The general population isn't on GC side. The general population still very, very much believes in gender.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think people believe in gender- I don’t think people generally believe in QT’s interpretation of gender.

[–]adungitit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I agree. That still doesn't make the oft-repeated notion of most people being on GC side in any way accurate.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hold on… wait… wait a second…

Is that what I said?

Because I think I asked GB how much of their understanding of what the general population thinks about gender and trans people they got off of Reddit (an obviously pro trans site) and other online (and obviously- given the links GB has provided before- pro trans) forums.

Pretty sure I didn’t say shit about the general public siding with GC. Pretty sure I didn’t say shit about what GC thinks at all.

I actually don’t even think my comment counts as me stating anything at all, I just asked a question.

Eta- my tone is awful, i was in a bad mood, shouldn’t have been so snarky

[–]adungitit 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Most mainstream feminist subreddits and other feminist and social justice groups see gender critical posts as outrageously sexist.

Men also think feminism is a sexist matriarchal movement advocating male genocide. People being stupid and ignorant doesn't really say much beyond the fact that they're stupid and ignorant. Liberal feminism and trans activism has continuously failed to argue their points without advocating patriarchal ideology. You can see this play out numerous times on this very sub. Just saying that a group is "sexist" because it gets men's dicks angry doesn't mean a thing. Can you actually prove it? There has yet to be a single trans activist that's been up to the task and capable of forming arguments beyond "Transwomen are women because I say so". The reasons why trans activism and liberal feminism go against female rights have been continuously explained by GC, and trans activism has never been able to even attempt to disprove any of it.

I believe sex matters in terms of biological functions, for instance abortion rights and menstrual pad access.

So...you acknowledge the reality of women's biology...but women themselves are a figment of imagination? How do you work with this level of cognitive dissonance? It's like saying "I acknowledge human biology, but I don't think humans are real"

I think restrooms and changing rooms should be gender neutral.

And the threat of male violence, assault and harassment that they exist in the first place to protect women from are just...what? Going to be whisked away if women stop being so exclusionary towards men?

Wait, are you the same person who's continuously lied about the reality of violence and harassment that women face at the hands of men even after being given copious evidence proving you wrong?

fetuses can't change their gender.

Why?

I said although people AFAB are mostly treated like men, they will still be subject to issues specific fo people AFAB.

And why do you think that is? Who do you think made it so that "AFAB" people don't have penises and need sanitary pads for their periods? The TERFs? The patriarchy? Cis women?

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

How do my views frighten you?

Coz you want to remove carefully-thought out safeguards that have been put in place for the protection and benefit of women and children and impose rules that will put women and children at risk.

Coz you want to make adherence to the tenets of genderology mandatory for the whole population by law and by custom.

Coz you say that people can escape their sex, and thus the consequences of being female, by simply changing "gender presentation" and adopting a "gender identity" that denies their sex.

Coz you keep repeating

I believe sex matters in terms of biological functions, for instance abortion rights and menstrual pad access. However I otherwise don't believe sex matters.

Like a broken record. You keep pretending that biological sex differences solely or mainly are about matters like abortion and menstruation. You don't seem aware that the phase of life when female humans menstruate and might need an abortion is less than half the average US women's lifespan nowadays - yet biological sex differences that are of profound importance to girls' and women's health and wellbeing both precede the "childbearing years" of the female life cycle and persist long after it.

Coz when I asked you how changing "gender presentation" would apply to, and ameliorate, the widespread practice of aborting human female fetuses simply because they are female, you responded by saying

Lol fetuses can't change their gender

Hundreds of millions of female fetuses aborted simply for being female and your response is to laugh.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (25 children)

Coz you want to remove carefully-thought out safeguards that have been put in place for the protection and benefit of women and children and impose rules that will put women and children at risk.

I find the term "women and children" sexist because it implies women are in the same category as children or are more weaker somehow. If something is dangerous to women and children, it is dangerous to men and enbies too.

Coz you want to make adherence to the tenets of genderology mandatory for the whole population by law and by custom.

Coz you say that people can escape their sex, and thus the consequences of being female, by simply changing "gender presentation" and adopting a "gender identity" that denies their sex.

But most people support your side and I don't have any political power.

Coz you keep repeating

I believe sex matters in terms of biological functions, for instance abortion rights and menstrual pad access. However I otherwise don't believe sex matters.

Like a broken record. You keep pretending that biological sex differences solely or mainly are about matters like abortion and menstruation. You don't seem aware that the phase of life when female humans menstruate and might need an abortion is less than half the average US women's lifespan nowadays - yet biological sex differences that are of profound importance to girls' and women's health and wellbeing both precede the "childbearing years" of the female life cycle and persist long after it.

Coz when I asked you how changing "gender presentation" would help prevent or curb the widespread practice of aborting human female fetuses simply because they are female, you responded by saying

Lol fetuses can't change their gender

Hundreds of millions of female fetuses aborted simply for being female and your response is to laugh.

I laughed because you implied fetuses can change their gender which they can't. Yes female fetuses aborted for being female. No one is denying that.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Do you think the average woman is as strong as the average man?

If those foetuses are aborted because they are female, is this sex or gender? Are females being aborted due to their femaleness or not? Is female genital mutilation performed on girls because they are female or because they identify as girls?

If sex doesn’t matter, why are these girls being harmed on the basis of their sex? If the foetuses being aborted due to their sex, does sex really not matter still?

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I laughed because you implied fetuses can change their gender which they can't.

No, I did the precise opposite, FFS. The point I was making is that female fetuses cannot escape the consequences of their sex by changing their "gender presentation."

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

I laughed because you implied fetuses can change their gender which they can't. Yes female fetuses aborted for being female. No one is denying that.

Wait a minute... So, you do recognize a biology-based definition of female. And you do recognize that sex-based discrimination is a thing. Yet you keep understating the importance of sex and prioritizing "gender identity" because...? Really, why do you do this?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (20 children)

Biology can absolutely result in discrimination, but that is not always the case. A trans man who passes as male, for instance, will not be catcalled on the streets, and will have his ideas taken seriously. A trams woman who passes as female will experience the same catcalling cis women experience and may be offered a lower salary than her male colleagues applying for the same position. If you read articles from actual trans people, they will tell you how they were treated differently when presenting as men vs women, or even presenting as androgynous.

[–]BiologyIsReal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

People mistaking someone's sex doesn't mean said discrimination isn't based on sex. And you don't need to adopt an "trans identity" in order to be perceived differently in certain circunstances. For example, many women had published books under a male sounding pseudonym or just using their initial so as potential readers don't immediately dismiss their works upon seeing a female name.

By the way, I find funny that you use catcalling as an example because there are actually many trans identified males (you know, the kind who identify as "women") who would find catcalling a "validating" and desirable experience. Are you going to tell me you never heard any of them fetishizing humillianting experiences like catcalling? Don't you hate-read Ovarit? Have you ever lurked through the "it's a fetish" section?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

So by your logic women can easily escape sexism by presenting themselves differently and endure sexism for the sake of “presenting as women”

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

Yes. That does not mean we shouldn't change our sexist systems and that doesn't mean women should be told to just transition to men to escape sexism.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Yet you are here spouting ideology that says exactly this. You are making statements here regularly that contradict this.

It is not possible as far as I’m concerned for any reasonably intelligent adult to argue that a little girl could just cut her hair and call herself a boy to avoid fgm so you are absolutely just trolling. Even with the silly little caveat of ‘but they shouldn’t of course :)”

You cannot possibly not see how this implies that it’s a choice to “present” as a girl and a choice to be mutilated due to “identifying as a girl” Funny how you respond to this and none of my other comments pointing out how you argue for sexist shit. Still refusing to answer any questions too.

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So, do you admit identifying as a woman basically means choosing to endure sexism and misogyny? Because this is the reason of GC criticism of the concept of "cis". Yet you claim not to understand why we take offense on being called "cis".

[–]strictly 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yes. That does not mean we shouldn't change our sexist systems and that doesn't mean women should be told to just transition to men to escape sexism.

So do you think biological females who transition have a trans privilege over biological females who don't transition then?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Gender presentation =/= dress. Gender presentation is your skin, your voice, amount of facial hair, etc. Whatever sex you pass as and are perceived as.

Jesus Christ.

You don’t even understand what your own side believes lmao

Can’t tell if it’s just you and heim that make it up as you go along or if that’s just what you all do

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

if that’s just what you all do

This one.

TRAs in general seem to be unable to have a coherent thought, they make shit up according to what they need at the time.