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[–]BiologyIsReal 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (68 children)

If they are called sex-based rights it means they are meant for people who are female (you know, the kind who can get pregnant, not the kind of people who "identify" into being "female"). Do you not think there are biological diferences between males and females (using sex-based definitions, here) and that those differences need to be taken into account? Do you not think females and males (again, sex-based definitions here) have different life experience both because of biology and what society expects from them? Do you no think that people who are born as female and people who "identify" into being "female have both biological differences and different life experiences? do you not think that therefore people born as female and people who "identify" as "female" may have differents needs? Do you not think the needs from people who are born as female and people who "identify" as "female" may ever clash? Do you not think people who are born as female have a right to advocate for their own unique needs?

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Just to clarify: sex-based rights aren't exclusive to females, though that' how we think of them because traditionally only female people were denied basic human rights - such as the right to vote - based on their sex.

Historically, however, most rights granted solely to boys & men were granted based entirely on the fact of their male sex, so men's historical rights should count as sex-based rights too. Such as the right to learn to read & write, the right to attend school, the right to learn & practice all the trades & professions, (from masonry to tailoring/clothes making to law, theology and medicine), the right to apply for a panoply of jobs, the right to own property, the right to custody of one's children in the event of divorce, the right to apply for a bank loan or credit card, right to study religious texts such as the Talmud & Hadiths, the right to enter the priesthood, become a rabbi, imam or monk... and so on. If you look at the laws of human civilizations going back through time, you'll find again & again that a plethora of rights were explicitly granted to males solely because they are of the male sex.

Today in countries such as the US, males also have rights to many things that women can't take advantage of because of our different bodies. Such as treatment for prostate cancer & hemophilia, diseases that can only affect males. Or the rights of boys who play school sports to wear or be equipped with uniforms & gear such as helmets, pads & shoes sized and tailored to fit their male bodies, along with jock straps & cups to protect their male genitals, rather than to be forced to squeeze into uniforms & protective gear sized & shaped for female bodies - & to make do with sports bras instead of jockstraps & cups.

Moreover, males have the right to participate in, profit from, & enjoy, a plethora of sports for which there are no female equivalent at all (such as the Olympic decathlon, both Little League & Major League Baseball, and US-style tackle football), or for which there is a now female equivalent but not on the same scale as for males (the NBA vs the WNBA; soccer/football whether at the community, club, professional level) and which do not offer the two sexes the same chance at achieving fame & fortune. For example, in the US, the NFL, MLB & college football don't explicitly bar women, but football remains a male-only preserves anyways because due to the differences in male & female bodies, female athletes can't even come close to qualifying even to try out for these sports. (The sole exception is for the very occasional kicker in football.) But no one says that because women can't participate in these sports that males shouldn't be able to have them.

Also, some rights that members of both sexes were granted historically were sex-based in the sense that they only applied to people who were, or were assumed to be, heterosexual, or in instances involving two persons who appeared to be in a heterosexual relationship. For example, the right to engage in "sexual congress," marry, adopt & utilize medical services such as IVF were once confined only to male-female couples. Gay rights thus are also sex-based rights. And where gay rights now seem to be going off the rails, as it were, is with the push in recent years to disregard sex differences when it comes to human procreation. Some gay men who want biological children are now asserting that it's their human right to make use of women's bodies, & to put women's lives at risk, to do so. Further, some gay men who've obtained babies by exploiting women through coercive womb rental, aka "surrogacy," are now claiming that promoting the breastfeeding of infants through such slogans as "breast is best" & campaigns such as International Breastfeeding Week is bigoted, homophobic & unfairly "exclusionary" because gay men who've become fathers through surrogacy don't have the option of feeding their children in this way.

[–]BiologyIsReal 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Further, some gay men who've obtained babies by exploiting women through coercive womb rental, aka "surrogacy," are now claiming that promoting the breastfeeding of infants through such slogans as "breast is best" & campaigns such as International Breastfeeding Week is bigoted, homophobic & unfairly "exclusionary" because gay men who've become fathers through surrogacy don't have the option of feeding their children in this way.

First time I heard of this nonsense. Gay men can be as entintled as any other men, but of course pointing this out is "homophobic".

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Documentary film maker and TV producer Malcolm Clark, a gay man himself, now has several threads on Twitter about how younger gay male celebs like TV personality & influencer Tan France are not just exploiting women through use of surrogacy & their push to loosen laws around surrogacy so that egg donors & surrogate mothers have no rights, but they are now using their public platforms to complain about the idea that "breast is best" for babies.

https://twitter.com/TwisterFilm/status/1423429338268160000

Tan France, a gay man who with his husband has recently become a dad through rental of a woman's body, has signed on to be a paid promoter of a brand of infant formula. On Instagram this week, Tan complained

It’s National Breastfeeding Awareness Month, where one type of feeding is put on a social pedestal and those who can not or chose not to are made to feel second best for formula feeding.

Talk about appropriating other people's struggles! The people who have been "made to feel second best" by the so-called "nipple Nazis" in the cultural battles over breastfeeding have always been women, specifically mothers of newborns who for various reasons can't or don't breastfeed. La Leche League-type lobbying and campaigning has never caused any fathers or any other men "to feel second best" FFS! The "tit tyrants" who turn up their noses at the idea of not feeding a baby via the breast, or with pumped breast milk via bottle in a pinch, 100% of the time have always aimed their disapproval directly and solely at women. This issue has nothing to do with men like this colonizer Tan guy. The cheek of him grabbily appropriating the struggles of women who are mothers.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CSKs1FYHSAe/

Turns out that the brand of formula that this guy is promoting in the US is four times more expensive than the next most-costly brand on the market in the States. Worse, when it was introduced to the US market earlier this year, the FDA found it wasn't safe for babies and issued warnings telling parents who had purchased it to throw it out:

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1424031713454350341.html

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Gay men are men. Never forget that.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (63 children)

I do think there are biological differences between natal males and natal females. I don't think those differences matter that much, especially in matters of public policy. Trans women largely experience the same discrimination cis women do, like street harassment and unequal pay. That's why I don't understand why GC is reluctant to include trans women in their activism, when they are largely fighting the same fight. Though trans women don't want their activism anyway. I remember on r/FTM one trans guy posted his wife is a trans woman and he doesn't nearly experience the same harassment she does when going out in public. Though that is anecdotal. Trans men after transitioning may experience some issues cis women experience, like pregnancy and periods, but mostly when they pass they are treated like men by society. That doesn't mean they don't experience discrimination for being trans. An employer can find out you're trans by doing a background check and finding your dead name, and can use that against you in the hiring process. I think life experiences vary based somewhat on biological sex but mostly on gender presentation. I also don't believe sex-segregated spaces are a right.

[–][deleted] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (55 children)

I think life experiences vary based somewhat on biological sex but mostly on gender presentation.

Wow, all this time....all natal females had to do to avoid being oppressed was dress differently. Too bad we were apparently too stupid to figure that out.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, if only the hundreds of millions of human female fetuses aborted solely for being female had changed their "gender presentation," then they would have been given a chance to live - and to live free of all sex discrimination. Same goes for all the hundreds of millions of baby girls killed or abandoned to die by "natural causes" like exposure and starvation, and all the little girls who get subjected to the horror of female genital mutilation. How stupid of them not to have taken the tack that in GenderBender's view easily would have spared them.

Just goes to show that female humans really are too stupid to grasp that the mistreatment they/we get is mainly due to making the wrong choice of "gender presentation."

All the girls & women over history who were fired from jobs, kicked out of school and sent to places like the Magdelene laundries for being pregnant should've simply changed their "gender presentation" and voila, all would have been hunky-dory. All the pregnant, post-partum and breastfeeding women who get discriminated against, sexually harassed, hit on by creeps, subjected to unwanted touching and groping, insulted, mansplained to, perved on, dick waved at, jerked off to and beaten up for daring to be visibly pregnant or to breastfeed in the sight of men - or to be seen in public pushing a pram/stroller, holding a baby in arms or with a toddler in tow - they/we could have avoided all that unpleasantness if only we'd be so wise as to adopt a different "gender presentation."

All the girls and women who've been medically and sexually abused and traumatized by physicians during pregnancy and childbirth - and in many other situations too, as in the case of what Larry Nassar did to scores of young female gymnasts like Simone Biles - must have had it all coming for being too dumb to adopt a "gender presentation" that would have spared them.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (53 children)

Wow, all this time....all natal females had to do to avoid being oppressed was dress differently. Too bad we were apparently too stupid to figure that out.

That's not what I said. Gender presentation =/= dress. Gender presentation is your skin, your voice, amount of facial hair, etc. Whatever sex you pass as and are perceived as. Unless you are trans, it's unreasonable to expect you to change your appearance to appear a different sex. I experienced sexism as a cis woman, and my solution is to fight sexism, not to change my appearance.

Most trans men transition due to dysphoria, not to escape sexism. Many trans men say that themselves.

Feminist Trans Men & the Narrative of Internalized Misogyny

I want to die... confused, scared, am I manipulating myself?

The idea that trans men are “lesbians in denial” is demeaning and wrong

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (35 children)

I experienced sexism as a cis woman, and my solution is to fight sexism, not to change my appearance.

Could've fooled me! Sorry, Genderbender, but the views you've expressed in your posting history come across as extremely sexist. As outrageously sexist, in fact.

The views you have expressed also give the very strong impression that you have deep-seated dislike of, disdain for, and animus towards girls and women - and that you want to create a world in which no one will be allowed any rights and accommodations that take sex into account.

Your way of "fighting sexism" seems to be to deny that sex matters - or when you do acknowledge that sex is real and does sometimes matter, your tack is to minimize how much it matters and to gloss over and refuse to see or address most of the RL situations in which it matters. Frankly, your views frighten me.

Gender presentation is your skin, your voice, amount of facial hair, etc. Whatever sex you pass as and are perceived as.

How can a female human fetus change its skin, voice, amount of facial hair etc so as to "pass as" and be "perceived as" male and thus escape being subjected to sex-selective abortion on account of being female? How can a fetus change its voice or amount of facial hair when fetuses can't speak and don't have facial hair?

Please share the ways you've found that are successful in hiding fetal sex from sonogram machines and genetic screening.

By your misogynistic, reeking-of-privilege, elitist "reasoning," girls in Africa wouldn't be subjected to FGM if only they had the prescience and intelligence to wear fake beards and mustaches, and to lower their voices when they scream.

[–]adungitit 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Your way of "fighting sexism" seems to be to deny that sex matters - or when you do acknowledge that sex is real and does sometimes matter, your tack is to minimize how much it matters and to gloss over and refuse to see or address most of the RL situations in which it matters.

Sounds like standard liberal feminism to me.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (33 children)

Could've fooled me! Sorry, Genderbender, but the views you've expressed in your posting history come across as extremely sexist. As outrageously sexist, in fact.

It makes sense you see my posts that way because you're GC. Most mainstream feminist subreddits and other feminist and social justice groups see gender critical posts as outrageously sexist.

Your way of "fighting sexism" seems to be to deny that sex matters - or when you do acknowledge that sex is real and does sometimes matter, your tack is to minimize how much it matters and to gloss over and refuse to see or address most of the RL situations in which it matters. Frankly, your views frighten me.

I believe sex matters in terms of biological functions, for instance abortion rights and menstrual pad access. However I otherwise don't believe sex matters. For instance I think restrooms and changing rooms should be gender neutral. How do my views frighten you? I'm not in any position of power and GCs say most people agree with them.

How can a female human fetus change its skin, voice, amount of facial hair etc so as to "pass as" and be "perceived as" male and thus escape being subjected to sex-selective abortion on account of being female? How can a fetus change its voice or amount of facial hair when fetuses can't speak and don't have facial hair?

Please share the ways you've found that are successful in hiding fetal sex from sonogram machines and genetic screening.

Lol fetuses can't change their gender. You do that when you're older.

By your misogynistic, reeking-of-privilege, elitist "reasoning," girls in Africa wouldn't be subjected to FGM if only they had the prescience and intelligence to wear fake beards and mustaches, and to lower their voices when they scream.

That's not what I said. I said although people AFAB are mostly treated like men, they will still be subject to issues specific fo people AFAB.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Most mainstream feminist subreddits and other feminist and social justice groups see gender critical posts as outrageously sexist

Exactly how much of your understanding of how the general population views these topics is based on Reddit and other online forums?

Because…

Nevermind the because lol but I am curious about your answer.

[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Exactly how much of your understanding of how the general population views these topics is based on Reddit and other online forums?

The general population isn't on GC side. The general population still very, very much believes in gender.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think people believe in gender- I don’t think people generally believe in QT’s interpretation of gender.

[–]adungitit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I agree. That still doesn't make the oft-repeated notion of most people being on GC side in any way accurate.

[–]adungitit 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Most mainstream feminist subreddits and other feminist and social justice groups see gender critical posts as outrageously sexist.

Men also think feminism is a sexist matriarchal movement advocating male genocide. People being stupid and ignorant doesn't really say much beyond the fact that they're stupid and ignorant. Liberal feminism and trans activism has continuously failed to argue their points without advocating patriarchal ideology. You can see this play out numerous times on this very sub. Just saying that a group is "sexist" because it gets men's dicks angry doesn't mean a thing. Can you actually prove it? There has yet to be a single trans activist that's been up to the task and capable of forming arguments beyond "Transwomen are women because I say so". The reasons why trans activism and liberal feminism go against female rights have been continuously explained by GC, and trans activism has never been able to even attempt to disprove any of it.

I believe sex matters in terms of biological functions, for instance abortion rights and menstrual pad access.

So...you acknowledge the reality of women's biology...but women themselves are a figment of imagination? How do you work with this level of cognitive dissonance? It's like saying "I acknowledge human biology, but I don't think humans are real"

I think restrooms and changing rooms should be gender neutral.

And the threat of male violence, assault and harassment that they exist in the first place to protect women from are just...what? Going to be whisked away if women stop being so exclusionary towards men?

Wait, are you the same person who's continuously lied about the reality of violence and harassment that women face at the hands of men even after being given copious evidence proving you wrong?

fetuses can't change their gender.

Why?

I said although people AFAB are mostly treated like men, they will still be subject to issues specific fo people AFAB.

And why do you think that is? Who do you think made it so that "AFAB" people don't have penises and need sanitary pads for their periods? The TERFs? The patriarchy? Cis women?

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

How do my views frighten you?

Coz you want to remove carefully-thought out safeguards that have been put in place for the protection and benefit of women and children and impose rules that will put women and children at risk.

Coz you want to make adherence to the tenets of genderology mandatory for the whole population by law and by custom.

Coz you say that people can escape their sex, and thus the consequences of being female, by simply changing "gender presentation" and adopting a "gender identity" that denies their sex.

Coz you keep repeating

I believe sex matters in terms of biological functions, for instance abortion rights and menstrual pad access. However I otherwise don't believe sex matters.

Like a broken record. You keep pretending that biological sex differences solely or mainly are about matters like abortion and menstruation. You don't seem aware that the phase of life when female humans menstruate and might need an abortion is less than half the average US women's lifespan nowadays - yet biological sex differences that are of profound importance to girls' and women's health and wellbeing both precede the "childbearing years" of the female life cycle and persist long after it.

Coz when I asked you how changing "gender presentation" would apply to, and ameliorate, the widespread practice of aborting human female fetuses simply because they are female, you responded by saying

Lol fetuses can't change their gender

Hundreds of millions of female fetuses aborted simply for being female and your response is to laugh.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (25 children)

Coz you want to remove carefully-thought out safeguards that have been put in place for the protection and benefit of women and children and impose rules that will put women and children at risk.

I find the term "women and children" sexist because it implies women are in the same category as children or are more weaker somehow. If something is dangerous to women and children, it is dangerous to men and enbies too.

Coz you want to make adherence to the tenets of genderology mandatory for the whole population by law and by custom.

Coz you say that people can escape their sex, and thus the consequences of being female, by simply changing "gender presentation" and adopting a "gender identity" that denies their sex.

But most people support your side and I don't have any political power.

Coz you keep repeating

I believe sex matters in terms of biological functions, for instance abortion rights and menstrual pad access. However I otherwise don't believe sex matters.

Like a broken record. You keep pretending that biological sex differences solely or mainly are about matters like abortion and menstruation. You don't seem aware that the phase of life when female humans menstruate and might need an abortion is less than half the average US women's lifespan nowadays - yet biological sex differences that are of profound importance to girls' and women's health and wellbeing both precede the "childbearing years" of the female life cycle and persist long after it.

Coz when I asked you how changing "gender presentation" would help prevent or curb the widespread practice of aborting human female fetuses simply because they are female, you responded by saying

Lol fetuses can't change their gender

Hundreds of millions of female fetuses aborted simply for being female and your response is to laugh.

I laughed because you implied fetuses can change their gender which they can't. Yes female fetuses aborted for being female. No one is denying that.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Do you think the average woman is as strong as the average man?

If those foetuses are aborted because they are female, is this sex or gender? Are females being aborted due to their femaleness or not? Is female genital mutilation performed on girls because they are female or because they identify as girls?

If sex doesn’t matter, why are these girls being harmed on the basis of their sex? If the foetuses being aborted due to their sex, does sex really not matter still?

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I laughed because you implied fetuses can change their gender which they can't.

No, I did the precise opposite, FFS. The point I was making is that female fetuses cannot escape the consequences of their sex by changing their "gender presentation."

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

I laughed because you implied fetuses can change their gender which they can't. Yes female fetuses aborted for being female. No one is denying that.

Wait a minute... So, you do recognize a biology-based definition of female. And you do recognize that sex-based discrimination is a thing. Yet you keep understating the importance of sex and prioritizing "gender identity" because...? Really, why do you do this?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (20 children)

Biology can absolutely result in discrimination, but that is not always the case. A trans man who passes as male, for instance, will not be catcalled on the streets, and will have his ideas taken seriously. A trams woman who passes as female will experience the same catcalling cis women experience and may be offered a lower salary than her male colleagues applying for the same position. If you read articles from actual trans people, they will tell you how they were treated differently when presenting as men vs women, or even presenting as androgynous.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Gender presentation =/= dress. Gender presentation is your skin, your voice, amount of facial hair, etc. Whatever sex you pass as and are perceived as.

Jesus Christ.

You don’t even understand what your own side believes lmao

Can’t tell if it’s just you and heim that make it up as you go along or if that’s just what you all do

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

if that’s just what you all do

This one.

TRAs in general seem to be unable to have a coherent thought, they make shit up according to what they need at the time.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Transwomen are not females. That is why most female people don’t include them and don’t want to be forced to be tied/connected to them.

It’s not hate, it’s not not understanding, it’s just knowing that our differences matter much more than any similarities that some TW may share.

Maybe, just maybe, respect the differences you said you’re aware of.

Maybe just consider that your opinion is not fact based and is quite invasive to others, and as such shouldn’t be forced on others nor should it be implied that yours is the only good and right way.

People think differently than you think. A LOT of people. Like a lot a lot… like significantly more than think the same as you. You’re really trying to force a wish fulfillment-based ideology onto almost everyone on the planet. It’s absurd. And it’s actually wrong. History has shown us time and time again that it’s wrong to try to force society at large to bend to the whims of one specific ideology.

Even if TW were actually harmless to women or even so mentally/internally similar that they truly do « identify » as women-

So.

Fucking.

What.

So what. We don’t care. It changes nothing at all.

They aren’t women. They aren’t females. That’s the whole issue. And they won’t ever be the same as us, so stop trying to force everyone to pretend they are and stop sacrificing female equality to protect their feelings and avoid figuring out how to actual treat their mental condition. Even if sex based spaces aren’t a right- a large (significantly larger than the trans community) class of people needs and are accustomed to having specific safety and privacy measures in place in public life. They want to maintain that. Respect that or admit you don’t give a fuck about them. Even though you’re one of them.

Maybe the questions shouldn’t be about sex based rights or female rights or trans rights.

Maybe the questions should be Should the ideological beliefs of one group have the power to dictate to the rest of the population?

should the needs of a very small community overpower the established rights of half the population?

Should disproven pseudoscience and desperation be enough justification to strip a specific class of the right to be classed on their own, free of their oppressors?

If you think the answer is yes to even one of those questions, then you are (potentially) dangerous. If you know the answer is no and you still have no issue with pushing this shit onto others then you’re either extremely lost or a hypocrite.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

We don’t want transwomen in our spaces because they are male. Sex might not matter to you, but it does to others. Sex is the strongest predictor we have for safety. The fact that women occasionally commit violent acts does not make them an equal risk to men, who commit at least 90% of violent and/or sex crimes.

Choosing to treat this like it’s incomprehensible will not convince others to ignore the reality of being female.

Transwomen might be catcalled or whatever, but they do not experience the vast majority of sexism aimed towards women. They are raised on male socialisation and are given all the benefits of being visibly male.

Pretending that transgender people pass amazingly well and that we are lying when we say what we can see will not change that. Males are raised like boys. No amount of feminising surgery or hormones or vocal training will undo the formative years of the persons entire personality.

Why do women not have the right to sex segregation in your eyes? Is it unkind? Unfair? What reason to you have to believe women should not be able to seperate themselves from males?

Just a reminder, I use men to refer to natal males and women to refer to natal females exclusively and that will not change. Try to focus on what I’m asking and not the wording you like and dislike.

[–]strictly 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

That's why I don't understand why GC is reluctant to include trans women in their activism

I remember on r/FTM one trans guy posted his wife is a trans woman and he doesn't nearly experience the same harassment she does when going out in public.

You answer your own question. You admit there are biological females (some who are man-identifying) who don't experience the same type of struggles the woman-identifying male in your anecdote experiences. I am a biological female and I have luckily never been sexually harassed either. A woman-identifying male having had an awful experience I haven’t doesn’t immediately make me relate to the struggles of the woman-identifying male. You take it for granted that it wouldn't make sense for man-identifying females to group with woman-identifying males under feminism as some man-identifying females don’t experience street harassment and some woman-identifying males do etc. What is true for man-identifying females is also true for other biological females. Being harassed in the street is not a unifying biological female experience as some have been harassed and some haven’t, the only thing all biological females have in common is being of the female reproductive sex. It would make as little sense for us to group with woman-identifying males as it does for man-identifying females to group with woman-identifying males as neither of us share reproductive sex with these woman-identifying males.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

I am a biological female and I have luckily never been sexually harassed either.

Are you a trans man? I am a cis woman and I have been sexually harassed multiple times in public. I live in a large, populous city so maybe that makes a difference. My male friends, including trans men do not experience sexual harassment in public but the trans men I am friends with said they did experience it prior to passing.

What is true for man-identifying females is also true for other biological females.

From what I've read from trans men half the time they are treated like men half the time they are treated like women. I gave examples in this very thread.

[–]strictly 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Are you a trans man?

I have quite standard physical features for a biological female.

I live in a large, populous city so maybe that makes a difference.

Sexual harassment and sexual assaults is statistically high where I live compared to comparable places but the specific type of street harassment you refer to might be less common. I've luckily not experienced other types of sexual harassment either though.

From what I've read from trans men half the time they are treated like men half the time they are treated like women. I gave examples in this very thread.

According the data I’ve seen the sexual victimization rate of man-identifying females is higher than of other biological females and higher than the sexual victimization rate of woman-identifying males too (both in childhood and adulthood). Man-identifying females would therefore on average have a greater capacity to relate to sexually harassed woman-identifying males than other biological females would be able to relate to sexually harassed woman-identifying males. Regarding the other things you mention, the type of sexism woman-identifying males say they endure has as of yet not been the type of sexism I personally encounter in my life so I can’t personally relate to it. It’s also uncertain that the root cause of the discrimination they face would be the same, they might not look like biological females, or they aren’t in stealth and don’t pass as biological females for that reason. If their biological sex is known they don't get treated as biological females, they usually get treated as feminine biological males and I’m neither of those things. Regarding your anecdotes from man-identifying females, they seem to report that the type of sexism I encounter the most increased after transitioning. I haven’t really experienced that men would filter out what they think about women, I hear men openly say misogynistic things all the time. They trash talk women and want me to join in and get upset when I refuse.

Anyway, my point is, just because someone is a biological female it doesn't mean the biological female is automatically going to be able to relate to woman-identifying males. The only thing all biological females have in common is being biological female, and we don’t have that in common with woman-identifying males. It’s true we share human adult struggles with them but we share human adult struggles with all human adults, including adult males who don’t identify as women, so there is no reason to group with woman-identifying males in particular.

[–]adungitit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Sexual harassment and sexual assaults is statistically high where I live compared to comparable places but the specific type of street harassment you refer to might be less common.

Do you go out much?

I haven’t really experienced that men would filter out what they think about women, I hear men openly say misogynistic things all the time. They trash talk women and want me to join in and get upset when I refuse.

This has been my experience as well, which is why I try to avoid friendships with men. Thinking about it, I imagine men only do this kind of filtering when they're in more equal environments like certain jobs that don't tolerate it, and environments with more equal gender ratios, due to the backlash. I can only imagine that the women who are surprised at the misogyny that men uncover around them might've surrounded themselves with liberal men and assumed that these men are not misogynists, like most women assume (and then get burned by). Moreover, men expecting high-fives for their misogyny doesn't mean they see you as male, it just means they think you also agree that women are subhuman, and as we all know, history is rife with women having to put up with this due to patriarchal norms.

It’s true we share human adult struggles with them but we share human adult struggles with all human adults, including adult males who don’t identify as women, so there is no reason to group with woman-identifying males in particular.

I feel that's like saying effeminate and weak straight men who get bullied for being gay must also be gay. Sure, both might suffer the effects of homophobia, but that doesn't make them the same thing.

[–]strictly 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Do you go out much?

I’m not a party person but if you simply mean meeting people or being outside I think I’m about average in that aspect.

This has been my experience as well, which is why I try to avoid friendships with men.

I’m not friends with people I find unpleasant but I don’t care about the biological sex of the potential friend.

I imagine men only do this kind of filtering when they're in more equal environments like certain jobs that don't tolerate it, and environments with more equal gender ratios, due to the backlash.

That is what I think too.

Moreover, men expecting high-fives for their misogyny doesn't mean they see you as male, it just means they think you also agree that women are subhuman

lol, yeah, if they rant about other female people they are probably ranting about you too when you aren’t around. Hearing men making fun of female people on testosterone isn’t uncommon either and they aren’t using male-pronouns for them while doing so. In front of a known female person on testosterone they might censor their thoughts on that subgroup of female people and say sexist things about other female people instead.

I feel that's like saying effeminate and weak straight men who get bullied for being gay must also be gay. Sure, both might suffer the effects of homophobia, but that doesn't make them the same thing.

With adult human struggles I was referring to adult human struggles that are common to most adult humans, my point was that I don’t feel something uniquely in common with someone just because they share a struggle with me if most humans also share that struggle. Regarding your point, I thought about bringing that up but was lazy, but I agree. The homophobia a straight man who is mistaken for a gay man faces would feel less personal as he knows the homophobia was misdirected.