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[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

I’ve never seen a woman cast as a TW in a situation where it wasn’t done for laughs.

Transamerica and always sunny are the 2 that come to mind and both are just a parade of dick jokes. Hideously offensive. Better than dudes playing us but still awful.

I thought Leto (as well as Redmane- fair point about it mostly being pretransition tho) was fantastic. I think it’s a huge stretch to say Jared Leto didn’t nail that role- and I’m not even a Jared Leto fan.

Subjective to taste I suppose. I thoroughly disagree and literally had to turn off the movie because I couldn’t stand him.

I don’t know what Matt Bomer role you’re referring to, to comment.

In anything he plays a nonpassing trans sex worker that falls for a man 20 years her senior and not actually attractive because her life is so sad that she latched onto literally the first person who showed her any kindness. The entire premise is awful but made even worse by the fact she is played by a frankly very masculine man. It plays like a joke.

I think if a TW is best for a role and the character doesn’t have to be female they should just change the character to trans because otherwise all the audience is going to focus on is the fact that the actor is trans (if the actor is out, if they aren’t out and they pass then it’s irrelevant because nobody knows a trans person has been cast).

The issue is you are putting a natal woman into a role that could be trans or not because you are assuming that if someone is trans it has to be such a big deal that it comes up in any story they are involved in. Unless she is called cis, why can’t she just be trans? If it’s not specified why do you assume a character must not be trans?

On a personal level I don’t care who plays what, but I think from a story telling perspective, it inevitably matters to most audience members.

Fair enough. I personally would rather have no representation Than harmful representation. And men playing trans women does harm on a cultural level. It reinforces the idea we are just cross dressers or men in dresses that is the root of most anti trans actions. They think we are men failing at being men and take action they see as fit for that.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

anything he plays a nonpassing trans sex worker that falls for a man 20 years her senior and not actually attractive because her life is so sad that she latched onto literally the first person who showed her any kindness. The entire premise is awful but made even worse by the fact she is played by a frankly very masculine man. It plays like a joke.

To be fair that’s a very female trope. They’re literally giving him the pretty woman plot.

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

It still baffles me that trans people can complain about being objectified and fetishised, and have liberals rush to kiss their boo-boos, but when women do it the same people call them uptight prudes, sex-negative, misandrists, extremists, controlling etc.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Narcissism. The luxury of believing that they are a fully developed complex person with depth and that women are just noisy sexmeat who have stupid wants because the wants aren’t sex with the man thinking this.

Or that women are so invested in them because they are so important that the woman has no goals or life outside of being literally evil and daring to say no to them, the important person. Women are so vapid and empty inside that they formed a worldwide conspiracy to hurt the feelings of some specific men.

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It is not narcissistic to not want to deal with being objectified and fetishised. The problem is in the movement's misogynistic bias, where women are continuously told to know their place for the sake of liberating men's dicks because women aren't seen as actually oppressed beyond just being uptight prudes, while everyone else gets to be above them in oppression rankings. Admittedly, the trans activism's notion that women are gender-affirmed by their oppression also doesn't help, but I believe it all still relies on the same idea. Trans people as a result of their mental illness generally have very twisted understanding of gender roles, so the actual extent of the patriarchy is either unknown to them because of their socialisation (this applies more to male trans people), or it's viewed through the pink lens of gender-affirmation. Liberal feminism is more concerned with affirming everyone and recontextualising the status quo as actually liberating, than making them understanding the extent of the patriarchy.

That's not to say there isn't plenty of shittiness from trans individuals trying to throw people under the bus and undermine social progress for the sake of their gender affirmation, but you can say that about any group of individuals. The bigger problem is in how a supposed feminist movement enables them to do this to the detriment of women and portrays it as a fight for basic human rights.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

sexmeat

My new least favorite combination of words

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Nasty but accurate ime.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Nasty and depressing 😔

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It is a bit, but when it gets too much it helps a lot to interact with people like yourself and peaking and being able to seperate the tra movement from individuals.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I feel the same about you and most of the other GC people here when I'm feeling a little hopeless, too. I'm really glad you're all open to talking and learning so much! (Also, happy belated B-Day! I think! Lol)

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Aww it was my birthday recently! Thanks a million ya cutie!

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I guess what I don’t get is why it’s better for a woman to play a TW if when that’s done it’s pretty much always done as a joke? Like when males play TW it’s can be a joke sometimes but it’s also often done in earnest. I wonder if maybe you just don’t want other males playing TW? Like that in and of itself bothers you no matter how good the performance or how respectful the story?

I do agree that the quality of a performance is entirely subjective. I thought Leto was great.

Im not putting a natal woman in any role- I’m saying if there is a role for a “woman” but the character doesn’t have to be female (no pregnancy or otherwise obvious female plot line) and a trans actor is best for the role, they should cast the trans actor and make the character a TW instead of a woman. I’m not saying it has to be a plot point, but if it comes up or needs to be addressed, the character should just be trans.

I get why from your perspective you’d feel the way you do about other males playing TW. But I guess I think regardless of how either of us feels, I think most of the world does see TW as men/not women (Im not at all trying to be rude or offend you, just discussing), so I think that while for the trans community seeing males in TW roles is upsetting and something you find harmful, for the rest of us it can often make more sense than casting a woman. I do think simply because there are plenty of capable trans actors, that trans actors should be heavily prioritized when it comes to trans roles.

That’s kind of why I said what I said about just switching a character to being trans if a trans actor is cast- so that the actor’s work can be what’s focused on, instead of focusing on if the actor passes or whatever other distractions may arise when the audience is aware someone is trans but the character isn’t, if that makes sense

Random question- how do you think roles like Redmane’s should be handled? When the character has to be pre and post transition? Should the role be played by trans actor? Wouldn’t that be triggering?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I wonder if maybe you just don’t want other males playing TW? Like that in and of itself bothers you no matter how good the performance or how respectful the story?

Yes. It’s offensive always.

guess what I don’t get is why it’s better for a woman to play a TW if when that’s done it’s pretty much always done as a joke?

At least they’re women. And it doesn’t feed the men in dresses narrative that feeds into harming us.

I’m saying if there is a role for a “woman” but the character doesn’t have to be female (no pregnancy or otherwise obvious female plot line) and a trans actor is best for the role, they should cast the trans actor and make the character a TW instead of a woman. I’m not saying it has to be a plot point, but if it comes up or needs to be addressed, the character should just be trans.

And I’m saying that there’s no difference between natal and trans women in most stories. You putting the trans label on a neutral character is improper there’s no difference unless the story is about transition or pregnancy.

I get why from your perspective you’d feel the way you do about other males playing TW. But I guess I think regardless of how either of us feels, I think most of the world does see TW as men/not women (Im not at all trying to be rude or offend you, just discussing), so I think that while for the trans community seeing males in TW roles is upsetting and something you find harmful, for the rest of us it can often make more sense than casting a woman.

That’s the problem. It’s a harmful idea that I’d only strengthened by this kind of negative representation.

Random question- how do you think roles like Redmane’s should be handled? When the character has to be pre and post transition? Should the role be played by trans actor? Wouldn’t that be triggering?

Ideally doubling like how they used laverne’s brother. Or if the actress is comfortable and androgynous enough, makeup.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

There actually is a difference between women and TW in stories. One is a transwoman, one is a woman. As I said- if it’s not relevant then it won’t come up and it won’t matter. I’m literally saying if it’s relevant, then just acknowledge the truth of the situation. Because that won’t distract from the story or cause the audience to laugh, scratchy their heads, or otherwise be taken out of the story. If it’s not relevant, it doesn’t need to be mentioned. The audience is gonna know the actor is trans and will likely have it into he back of their mind the whole time they watch anyway. So pretending that’s not the case does nothing for anyone lol

And to me, casting a woman as a TW just seems like something done to avoid casting a TW for whatever reason or as a joke. It’s absurd to prefer to be mocked just because you’d prefer a woman mock you than another male portray you, but, I guess…

You can call it a harmful idea but you’re never gonna be able to get around 99% of people looking at you differently because you’re trans. It’s always going to matter to most audiences. Even if it’s just them sitting there looking for signs of someone’s real sex. Maybe that’s shitty- but that’s shitty of society, not me for pointing it out.

I loved how they used Cox’s brother. That seems like such a fortunate coincidence though. I guess it could work to cast separate actors but they’d need to look very similarly and be similar heights etc and that’s sometimes tricky.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There actually is a difference between women and TW in stories. One is a transwoman, one is a woman. As I said- if it’s not relevant then it won’t come up and it won’t matter. I’m literally saying if it’s relevant, then just acknowledge the truth of the situation. Because that won’t distract from the story or cause the audience to laugh, scratchy their heads, or otherwise be taken out of the story. If it’s not relevant, it doesn’t need to be mentioned. The audience is gonna know the actor is trans and will likely have it into he back of their mind the whole time they watch anyway. So pretending that’s not the case does nothing for anyone lol

That’s my point. You can literally just not address it. Then the character need not be trans or a natal women. They can simply be.

I would rather only trans people play trans people, but yes it’s less insulting to be mocked by a woman playing us than be mocked and encourage our continued negative societal status. A natal woman playing is is the lesser harm.

And the fact that we are defined by being a trans is a bad thing. It’s only encouraged and made worse every time some chisel jawed muscular leading man in caked on makeup is put in a movie and America is told “this is the icon of a trans woman”. How marginalized groups are treated and perceived is in a large part due to media. There’s is no greater harm to the image of trans women in pop culture than men playing trans women and just conflating us with cross dressers. We may never cure it, I think we will always be treated as freaks, but at least we can try not to make it worse.

And double casting may be tricky but it also shouldn’t generally be necessary. So many of the few trans stories we see are those early transition stories like transparent, I’d like to see more trans women in things living their lives. Transition is treatment for a disease. It helps you but it’s a period of shame and being hated and stress that’s one of the hardest parts of our lives in a lot of ways. The only pictures of Us being that isn’t great. I’d like to see trans characters living their lives and not defined by transition. Like Laverne in OITB or the women in Tangerine, or a fantastic woman. It’s moving that way but stories like transparent with cis men aping trans women transitioning and making us the butt of so many jokes isn’t going to make society deride us less.