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[–]Penultimate_Penance 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

Gender Identity should be treated like a subjective religious belief, because that is what it is. We can make reasonable accommodations for it in law much in the same way we do for religious people. Example

Other than that Gender Identitarians should have the same human rights as anyone else, but no special privileges. Single sex spaces should remain just that, single sex and based on objective verifiable reality not subjective 'gender identity'.

As for cosmetic surgeries, people who believe in Gender Identitarianism should pay for those with their own wallets. Every person who has a real life threatening or debilitating illnesses should be put in line first before even considering paying for unnecessary cosmetic surgeries with public funds. What should be provided for everyone is mental healthcare whenever they need it and ideally we would also have universal healthcare, but that seems to be a pipe dream in the U.S.

We need new laws to require researchers to gather sex disaggregated data for their studies especially when it comes to healthcare.

We also need laws that require researchers to test an equal amount of women & men (and make sure to sex disaggregate the data) for new drugs & disease treatments, because how a disease/drug affects one sex can be drastically different in the opposite sex.

Women need specialized laws/rights that specifically protect our bodily autonomy relating to pregnancy. Male politicians have catastrophically failed to take women's needs into account, it's time to get more women in politics so laws that take the reality of female bodies are a priority and not an afterthought in law.

This one is debatable, but having 50% gender quotas in all political positions could profoundly improve women's lives. Our needs and our issues have gone ignored too long. Men and that includes transwomen have failed to adequately represent women's interest in government. It is long past time for women to get equal representation in the most powerful positions in the land.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

Gender Identity should be treated like a subjective religious belief, because that is what it is.

Obviously I fundamentally disagree that my identity is religious in any way.

Single sex spaces should remain just that, single sex and based on objective verifiable reality not subjective 'gender identity'..

Absent third spaces this renders trans women intractably unsafe.

As for cosmetic surgeries, people who believe in Gender Identitarianism should pay for those with their own wallets. Every person who has a real life threatening or debilitating illnesses should be put in line first before even considering paying for unnecessary cosmetic surgeries with public funds. What should be provided for everyone is mental healthcare whenever they need it and ideally we would also have universal healthcare, but that seems to be a pipe dream in the U.S.

Transition care isn’t considered cosmetic. It’s therapeutic. And given economic realities of being trans this would essentially be a de facto ban on medical transition.

[–]Penultimate_Penance 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (28 children)

Who should be first in line for public funding: a diabetic who needs insulin shots to not literally fucking die or someone who has mental health issues who 'needs' cosmetic surgeries? How is it not a slap in the face to those people for a man who claims to be a women to get public funding for his fake breasts for free, but if they miss a paycheck and can't get money in time they will literally die?

Will trans identified individuals die if they don't facial feminization surgery, fake breasts and wrong sex hormones? The answer to that is a definitive no they will not die. This is a matter of priorities more than anything.

I suffer excruciating debilitating pain every month most likely because of endometriosis. Public funding for similar conditions to that should also be prioritized over cosmetic surgeries.

How we should prioritize public health funding: Life or Death > Debilitating Illnesses (Including Mental Illnesses) > Cosmetic Surgeries

As long as diabetics insulin shots aren't being paid for by public funds trans 'affirmative care' should not be paid for either.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

Who should be first in line for public funding: a diabetic who needs insulin shots to not literally fucking die or someone who has mental health issues who 'needs' cosmetic surgeries? How is it not a slap in the face to those people for a man who claims to be a women to get public funding for his fake breasts for free, but if they miss a paycheck and can't get money in time they will literally die?

Both. Insulin should be free or extremely cheap because it’s necessary and actually not expensive to produce. But of course that is getting into a larger flaws of the health system discussion.

Will they die? Probably not without ffs or a breast enhancement but without hormones? Yes in many cases. I personally was at the point of Jill myself or give up and transition. It’s that bad.

Trans affirming care isn’t cosmetic. It’s therapeutic. It’s not unimportant or unnnecessary just because you don’t like it. At least hormones and bottom surgery are undeniably therapeutic.

They should both be paid for.

[–]Penultimate_Penance 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (26 children)

Give me what I demand or I'll commit suicide is unacceptable. You won't die without wrong sex hormones. Anyone who chooses to commit suicide that is 100% on them. Society isn't obligated to cave in to classic abuser manipulative tactics and this is coming from someone who spent many years feeling suicidal. You know what I never did, because I'm not an entitled manipulative abusive asshole? I never once threatened to commit suicide if I didn't get my way. I kept it to myself and dealt with my own shit. My problems were mine to solve, at no point was I so entitled to think that society at large was obligated to cater to me. (This is a telling difference between male and female socialization. Women are much more likely to internalize their problems and men tend to externalize their problems.)

If someone is in an abusive relationship are they obligated to stay in said relationship if the abuser tells them that they'll commit suicide if they leave? If a 100 million men threaten to kill themselves if we don't allow them to rape women should we cave in and give them what they want? If a trans person says they'll commit suicide if society doesn't pay for their 'affirmative' cosmetic surgeries and wrong sex hormone treatments that will more often than not turn them into a lifelong medical patient and a burden on society until the day they die am I obligated to prioritize them above people with lethal diseases and real physical disabilities? Not being able to accept your perfectly healthy body the way it is, is a mental health issue not a physical issue.

Destroying a perfectly healthy body to make it vaguely resemble the opposite sex is not a social good. It's not an individual good either. I prioritize making unhealthy bodies whole over destroying perfectly healthy natural bodies with my tax dollars.

Public funds are limited. People are literally dying (not abusively threatening suicide actually fucking dying) because they cannot afford even the most basic medical care. Poor kids are dying in the United States, because they cannot afford to go to the dentist.. Universal healthcare for all should not be sidelined by trans entitlement.

I've gone without any healthcare for years, because I cannot afford it, so I have a really hard time feeling any sympathy whatsoever for people who threaten to commit suicide if they don't get wrong sex hormones that will wreck their body. You know what's more important than that? The millions of women suffering from excruciating pain every single goddamn month. I can't even understand what people are saying to me level of pain. I can't identify out of that pain. (And yes the pain often gets so bad that I do feel suicidal, sometimes just ending it seems worth it so I don't have to go through one more second of the pain.) I'll just have to suffer through it until I hit menopause and I'll likely never be able to afford to treat it, but go on keep on moaning about how you can't accept your body the way it is and how having a body you don't like is such a tragedy.

You know that there are people with genetic disorders who suffer excruciating pain 360 days out of the year who cannot afford treatment right? If you have a healthy functioning body that works be grateful. A lot of us aren't that lucky. If the severely disabled can accept their bodies and make the best out of a shitty situation why can't you? Why should we accept you if you can't even accept yourself? Society can't make you love yourself, only you can do that.

Trans people need mental healthcare more than anything and they need to learn to accept themselves as they are. Having a healthy body is important, wrecking it chasing after a pipe dream is ill advised. 'Affirmative surgeries & hormones' is today's lobotomy. We'll look back at this point in history with shame. So many people will suffer the horrific potentially debilitating consequences of unnecessary surgeries and wrong sex hormones and there will be no going back for them, the damage is irreparable. It's a goddamn tragedy and absolutely no one should be encouraged to go that route. Trans people are hurting themselves and I for one am not willing to foot the bill for their self inflicted demise, especially when there are millions people who do have physical illnesses that desperately need care.

[–]ausernamee 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Treating dysphoria with horomones is similar to treating other mental illnesses with psychiatric drugs.

For most mental illness, psychoanalysis provided legitimate relief from suffering.

These are the two options we have for treating dysphoria. It's not the best oprtion for most mentally ill people to alter their brain function and cross your fingers and check in with therapy. Psychoactive meds aren't curing anything either, they're just severing some connections hoping to snap you our of a pattern of behavior. Psychoanalysis would be the more gentle approach with less harm. But it's a lot cheaper for pills.

If trans people must be treated, I think the insurance companies are deciding that it's a lot cheaper for a quick fix surgery than for 5000 hours of psychotherapy

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

It’s not a threat it’s a reality. Dysphoria is a crushing and miserable life. Not being able to have treatment when you live in constant misery makes people Jill themselves. It’s not a stunt, it’s a pain response. It’s not “abuser tactics” or “threats”. If you are hopeless and can’t get treatment for being miserable there’s a good chance you kill yourself. That’s not unique to trans people.

Just because it’s a mental health issue doesn’t mean it isn’t medical in treatment. Antidepressants address a mental health issue. It’s still necessary medical treatment.

Destroying a perfectly healthy body to make it vaguely resemble the opposite sex is not a social good. It's not an individual good either. I prioritize making unhealthy bodies whole over destroying perfectly healthy natural bodies with my tax dollars.

My body isn’t destroyed. It’s better. I got to shed the mascot suit I was forced to wear and feel like a person. And in doing so I’m healthier than I ever was. Because sleep and good nutrition and personal care come a hell of a lot easier when you don’t want to die. You act like a body is destroyed if it’s genitalia fail. It’s not destroyed, it ain’t even broken.

It’s not a threat. Without treatment many trans people hit a wall where they need to transition or just stop the pain. I was there and I’m not the only one. I literally was going to kill myself if I couldn’t find a way to transition. I didn’t communicate it to anyone. But it was get on estrogen or Jill myself. That’s not a threat. It’s the reaction or someone in pain who may be told there will never be relief.

Universal healthcare isn’t being caught up by trans people it’s being held up by the health insurance lobby. Even you can’t have enough of a tinfoil hat to blame us for that level or corporate greedy

I've gone without any healthcare for years, because I cannot afford it, so I have a really hard time feeling any sympathy whatsoever for people who threaten to commit suicide if they don't get wrong sex hormones that will wreck their body. You know what's more important than that? The millions of women suffering from excruciating pain every single goddamn month. I can't even understand what people are saying to me level of pain. I can't identify out of that pain. (And yes the pain often gets so bad that I do feel suicidal, sometimes just ending it seems worth it so I don't have to go through one more second of the pain.) I'll just have to suffer through it until I hit menopause and I'll likely never be able to afford to treat it, but go on keep on moaning about how you can't accept your body the way it is and how having a body you don't like is such a tragedy.

That’s terrible. You should be able to get treatment. But so should we. Single payer needs to happen but it’s not trans people stopping it. I’m not even saying everything needs to be covered but hormones and bottom surgery are at least undeniably medical and need to be covered.

You know that there are people with genetic disorders who suffer excruciating pain 360 days out of the year who cannot afford treatment right?

Also terrible. Also should have treatment. Also not exclusive to trans people getting treatment. Trans people represent a tiny fraction of the population. And many of us don’t want bottom surgery. Without the cost deflation that comes with single payer mine ran about 40000 before insurance. A one time expenditure that ultimately improved my physical health in a way that probably paid for itself in lack of need tor future treatments. This isn’t some crushing number and again only a tiny fraction of the population is applying it and it would defer other health costs. Or hell orchiectomy serves the hormonal purpose and is 10 percent the cost and the with no GA risk. Why not cover that?

If you have a healthy functioning body that works be grateful. A lot of us aren't that lucky. If the severely disabled can accept their bodies and make the best out of a shitty situation why can't you? Why should we accept you if you can't even accept yourself? Society can't make you love yourself, only you can do that.

Therapy doesn’t treat dysphoria effectively. That’s why transition exists at all. If conversion therapy worked on us society would never allow us to be a ourselves. I fixed my body. I accept my body now. It’s as good as I can make it. That’s the difference. A chronically disabled person may use a mobility aid or pain control or whatever else. And if they have a medically correctable condition they may need to correct it for quality of life. That’s what transition is. You can’t fathom how horrific it is to feel so disgusting and monstrous and every second of every day. To not be able to look in a mirror or shower in the light out or sheer gut wrenching disgust and wrongness. It’s constant unending psychic torture. If some cheap pills and a quick snip can give someone a life worth living why is that bad? Why is someone finding peace and ending their pain an affront to you? This is us”making the best of a shitty situation”.

Trans people need mental healthcare more than anything and they need to learn to accept themselves as they are. Having a healthy body is important, wrecking it chasing after a pipe dream is ill advised.

Our bodies aren’t wrecked. They’re fixed.

Affirmative surgeries & hormones' is today's lobotomy. We'll look back at this point in history with shame.

Lobotomies were for compliance not subjective improvement. Transition literally makes people better mentally. Comparing the two is offensive to those who whiny through both.

Transition isn’t demise. We are truly alive for the first time once we transition. Transition is an unfortunate necessity because society will never really accept us, but it’s a positive outcome. I am better. We are better. We aren’t dead or broken.

[–]Penultimate_Penance 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

Giving anorexics free liposuctions is wrong. Cutting off the limb/s of people with Body Integrity Identity Disorder is wrong. Damaging healthy bodies of people with sex dysphoria is also wrong.

Crazy idea, but how about we treat people with mental health problems with mental health treatment. Not cater to their current inability to accept reality.

You may very well be one of those people in these 20 year studies who has to face up to the devastating long term consequences of physically transitioning and I don't wish that on anyone. In many of the studies people were initially happy but years down the line the dysphoria wasn't actually cured and they had to deal with the dysphoria and a body that was wrecked by unnecessary hormones and surgery. Surgeries are a big fucking deal and they should not ever be done casually. A person can easily end up suffering from chronic pain & disability for the rest of their life, because of them. Hormones are also a big deal and can have horrible even lethal health consequences in the long run. There are a lot of unknowns and every transgender person who uses wrong sex hormones is effectively a guinea pig participating in a long term unethical medical experiment. Unnecessary surgeries and hormones should absolutely be hard to get. There should be gatekeeping involved.

This isn't coming from a position of hate. It's coming from a serious consideration of medical ethics and how people with mental health issues ought to be treated and cared for by society. Sometimes the kindest most ethical thing society and individuals can do for a person with a mental health issue is to say no. No I will not help you cut your own arm off. No I will not help you starve yourself to death. No I will not help you get wrong sex hormones and unnecessary surgeries that will destroy and/or remove perfectly healthy body parts.

These articles cite legitimate sources about how transition is not the best treatment and often does more harm than good without solving the underlying issue, because body dysmorphia is a mental health problem not a physical health problem. A perfectly healthy male or female body is not a problem, refusal to accept that reality is. Trans people should get evidence based health care, not ideological wishful thinking healthcare.

Transition as Treatment: The Best Studies Show the Worst Outcomes

Transgenderism: A Pathogenic Meme "The idea that one’s sex is a feeling, not a fact, has permeated our culture and is leaving casualties in its wake. Gender dysphoria should be treated with psychotherapy, not surgery."

Correction: Transgender Surgery Provides No Mental Health Benefit "The American Journal of Psychiatry has issued a major correction to a recent study. The Bränström study reanalysis demonstrated that neither “gender-affirming hormone treatment” nor “gender-affirming surgery” reduced the need of transgender-identifying people for mental health services. Fad medicine is bad medicine, and gender-anxious people deserve better."

Insuring Rights for “Wrong” Bodies

Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden "Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group."

Correction to Bränström and Pachankis "the results demonstrated no advantage of surgery in relation to subsequent mood or anxiety disorder-related health care"

“Transitioning” Procedures Don’t Help Mental Health, Largest Dataset Shows

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

You can’t cure dysphoria with normal mental health care. It doesn’t work. If it did they wouldn’t let us transition. Much of society would prefer there be no such thing as trans women.

Hormone therapy has been going for near 80 years. It’s not experimental or unethical. I’m not against some measure of reasonable psychiatric gatekeeping but for the people that need it, transition is the one and only effective treatment.

Transition isn’t destruction. It’s fixing a broken person. The alternative is unending unendurable suffering. That’s what you are arguing for, unchecked suffering.

Transition is the one thing that works. You are arguing for snake oil for the suffering when real effective treatments exist.

[–]adungitit 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Much of society would prefer there be no such thing as trans women.

I don't think so. Society finds it much easier to understand a man who rejects masculinity because he feels he's a woman than a man who rejects it because...well, just because.

You are arguing for snake oil for the suffering when real effective treatments exist.

Alternatives should be looked into when said "treatment" involves healthy body part amputations, plastic surgeries and a lifetime taking hormones not meant for your body, either repressing or destroying your body's normal healthy hormonal production.

[–]Penultimate_Penance 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

I believe studies over one person's anecdotes.

[–]BiologyIsReal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Even based on what circling says in the sub, "transition" doesn't seem to have resolve much of circling's problems.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

And the countless studies that lead to transition being accepted in the first place? The studies from like 2 years ago showing that parents supporting a trans teenagers identity lead to substantially improved mental health? You are at brietbart levels of tinfoil if you honest believe this.