you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Roma clans. Maoris. The Amish. I can explain a little further on the Roma.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I would be interested in hearing more about Roma gender roles even if theory isn’t.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Sure! I’ve grown up fairly gadje but even with that there were still certain traditional vestiges that were extremely sexed. I can’t speak for any Roma group except of the cyganie outside Poland either, Couldn’t tell you what happens in a gitano family, haha.

As the youngest girl in the family, I filled my plate last and never with the choice cuts because it’s expected that as a girl I needed less, and had the least claim. This rank applies to a lot of things.

It was grandma and I that did the pickling, canning, laundry, mending, and never mowed the grass or fixed the car. Men’s work and women’s work are very separated and exactly the type of chores you’d expect. Men work, women keep the household together (and sometimes work as well)

There was an understanding that it was important my sister and I learned to run a household because it was assumed that’s what we would become as adults.

Menstruation is considered very unclean and your clothes shouldn’t ever be washed with your husbands because that’s dirty? (Lots of things are inexplicably dirty but the female body is considered inherently unclean because vaginas)

Traditionally a woman’s role was like most women’s, raise the children, cook the food, clean the living quarters, maintain and monitor relationships with extended family, and to take responsibility for any actions of your children or husband that brings shame. You accept responsibility if your child steals or hurts someone and must wear the shame with them. Not a small task in a shame motivated society. Ostracism is a big deal and your value as a person comes from having little to no shame on you.

Dads traditionally aren’t super involved with the kids unless the oldest daughter is approaching marriageable age. Then he will closely watch her activities and socialisation to ensure she is not bringing the family shame by having sex or being too friendly with boys or being a lesbian.

This wasn’t a big issue for us because no dad and Australian laws, plus the diaspora here is less concerned with traditions and Romanipen. For more traditional families a daughter may have her husband selected for her by age 12. Girls are more restricted in what they can do, where they can go unaccompanied, and by their duties in the home helping their ma to clean and cook and care for siblings.

Education is not as valued as being a good homemaker, wife, and mother. A University degree is cool but you could have four kids by now.

Your reputation is everything and if you’re considered promiscuous or care about your own goals more that your families goals for you it’s shameful. If you do or discuss unclean things or taboo subjects you are shameful. Naturally one very taboo subject is discussing sex. There’s not much in the way of sex education to put it gently. Boys are not expected to be virgins on their wedding day but a wedding could be called off if the bride has had sex.

When things like violence or assaults or child molestation occur, you do not go to others for help. It’s expected that it will be kept hidden and what cannot be avoided will be tolerated. You are a family and do not need outside help, and should never bring your husbands shame to light.

Changes are occurring and it’s much more acceptable now to pursue a career and to not accept violence in the home. I don’t wanna give off the impression that we’re still all in caravans barefoot and pregnant! There’s definitely a very intensely gendered history of tradition, and it’s not a culture that rapidly embraces change. (Possibly true for many insular cultures)

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thank you. Interesting but disturbing, particularly all the parts about shame. It sounds like a very isolating environment for women.

I don’t wanna give off the impression that we’re still all in caravans barefoot and pregnant!

Not at all. It seems like misogyny is often the thing people hold onto for the longest even through changes in culture. And it seems like it always takes men so long to catch up when women are already moving on.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, shame culture is weird. When you’re responsible for the shame or honour of others it does become isolating. You gotta keep secrets if your kids or husband screw up within a very insular community which is a big risk for shame in itself. You tend to bear the punishments as well. Your child starts a fight and you don’t tell your husband? Well he heard about it and now you and your child are punished. You didn’t keep the fight a secret? Pfft still need to be punished cause you raised a kid that did a shameful thing!

The misogyny works for the men and they don’t want that to go away. They’re always the last to let go of misogyny.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I would think they are larger population sizes than I was thinking of in this.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So much for ‘I can change my understanding”