What is gender nonconformity to you?

submitted by HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (34 children)

Does someone have to be extreme to be non conforming?

Why does non conformity need to be groundbreaking to be nonconformity?

If a woman simply allows her body to remain natural she is seen as non conforming by many, with hairy legs and pits and brows, and without cosmetics.

Is she only gender nonconforming if she does that, and also wears sharply tailored men’s suits, wingtips, a haircut deemed manly, an aggressive personality and a mechanics degree? How many non conforming boxes must one tick before they are not conforming?

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

I don't think a person has to be extreme to be gender non conforming. But the degrees seem to matter to society.

It's complicated by masculinity and femininity being different and therefore non conformity is different for the sexes.

Also as I see it, non conformity is more commonly allowed to be expressed socially by women. Though it appears less in the media. Where as male non conformity is expressed less in both.

The natural hair of women is true but then so is the natural hair's head hair.

The degree of non conformity is an interesting question. But it's very much one of those fuzzy logic, Sorites paradox situations. Surely we can agree on that even if we disagree on other issues?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (32 children)

I’m not saying it’s got a finite limit. It seemed like you were saying it, when saying hall didn’t count because he isn’t extremely gnc.

Personally I think most people are gender non conforming and that the visual aspect of it is only a small part, considering that gender norms are used to so heavily control women’s behaviour in particular.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

I am saying it's illustrative that "a good example" male of male gender non conformity is actually minor. It's also from 30/40 years ago.

I don't see how most people are gender non conforming. If that was the case gender wouldn't be the topic it is. Gender non conformity wouldn't be the issue it is.

Visual aspects are only one aspect but they are a regular aspect of it. Seems to be how gender works.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

Well, more extreme examples of gnc males tend to be offensive and fetishised like drag queens or cross dressers. That fetishisation is extremely gender conforming for males despite them adopting an appearance they think is feminine.

I mean, some bloke wore a tuxedo gown to some dumb popular awards show, it’s hardly as though the example Twain gave is the only possible example. There are plenty of gnc men but of course you won’t see them if you think being gnc in attire is even a particularly large part of it.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

I think "fetish" is being used wrongly here as a moral justification for objecting to drag queens and crossdressers.

The majority of the population sexualise masculinity and femininity. It's natural.

The language that morally condemns gnc males for a fetish is the exact same rhetoric used by ultra social conservatives to in the condemnation of gay men and women, including their gender expression.

There aren't plenty of gnc men by percentage.

It looks like GC's idea of acceptable gnc behaviour in men is what would be acceptable for a gnc woman. Maybe that makes consistent internal logical sense but it doesn't work outside of GC.

GC also then has to deal with internal disagreement over that.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (28 children)

Interesting claim, what do you mean by most people sexualise gender?

Do men get off on being loud and aggressive? Do they find trousers and short hair arousing? Are women super into being submissive according to you?

The judgement is fair imo. There is a shitty moral happening when a man thinks he’s cute and funny because he wears a gown and acts like a horrible caricature of a woman.

Gc accepts a variety of different forms of male expression, just not the handful where they mimic women and get aroused by it. What’s morally questionable about disliking the hypersexualised mockery of oneself?

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

Interesting claim, what do you mean by most people sexualise gender?

Asides from physical sexual characteristics, humans sexualise expressions of gender in a wider sense. But they aren't perfect reflections of each other.

If you look at porn, erotic and reported sexual fantasises of "the straights" you'll see plenty of gendered roles, narratives, behaviours and expressions.

Do you want me to read out the plots summaries of the erotic lit popular with women and the porn popular with men? This is very clear. It's not that men and women are completely different but there are sizable biases.

What’s morally questionable about disliking the hypersexualised mockery of oneself?

Because this isn't all about you. Because you don't get to dictate other people's sexuality.

I think social conservatives calling lesbians a mockery of men, unnatural and perverted are making a moral mistake. They often take disgust and make it an moral issue.

Gender non conformity is going to have sexual aspects too.

GC takes calls male gnc sexual behaviour perverted, fetishistic and a mockery.

But doesn't seem to comment on female gnc sexual behaviour.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Porn isn’t a reflection of gender norms lmao. I’m talking about the expectations like men are strong, women are nurturing, men are assertive, women are incapable of leadership not goddamn porn.

Why does everything come back to erotica with you?

Do you not see how gender norms exist outside of pornography?

Disliking how someone presents their sexual proclivities in public isn’t dictating their sexuality. How is disliking it when a man wears a grown and calls himself strawberry lemonade and makes jokes about women being mean and awful dictating to him whether he is straight/gay/bi? Dresses is not a sexuality.

We don’t comment on the sexual behaviour of anyone who doesn’t insert it into our lives when we don’t want it. It just so happens that men are the most invested in inserting their sexual behaviour into discussions and women’s spaces.

You don’t seem to recognise anything gnc that isn’t sexual and it’s so weird. Gendered socialisation happens to babies, saying boys like trucks and don’t cry. is that about a sexual kink? Can you talk about any topic without shoehorning it into sex and fetishes? It feels like you talk about that and nothing else.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

I don't think porn is perfect brainwashing that programmes people's brains to act in a certain way. The relationship details are unclear but a lot of it is serving desires not creating them.

Why do I think that? Because the pattern is so consistent and the pattern of changing people's desires through porn is weak.

Sounds like I do need to read you the plots to erotic that is popular with women. The lit is full of sexualized forms of masculinity.

Why does everything come back to erotica with you?

I was explicitly talking about the sexual elements of gender. It's literally the topic. Of course I'm going to talk about porn, erotica, sexual fantasies, desires and everything related.

Do you not see how gender norms exist outside of pornography?

Of course and I don't think sexuality all comes down to pornography. I think pornography reflects sexuality possibly more than it informs it because I don't think humans especially on drives likes sex are blank.

Disliking how someone presents their sexual proclivities in public isn’t dictating their sexuality.

This is basically back to "gay people need to keep in the bedroom stuff."

You think heterosexual conforming people don't show any sexuality in public? That there is no sexual display at all?

How is disliking it when a man wears a grown and calls himself strawberry lemonade and makes jokes about women being mean and awful dictating to him whether he is straight/gay/bi? Dresses is not a sexuality.

You are disingenuously mixing up dresses with misogyny here. They are different things.

By this reasoning everyone should be masculine.

We don’t comment on the sexual behaviour of anyone who doesn’t insert it into our lives when we don’t want it. It just so happens that men are the most invested in inserting their sexual behaviour into discussions and women’s spaces.

Again you are jumping between topics. Again this is a common socially conservative talking point. "Why won't the gay men stop inserting their perversion into our lives." You are using arguments used by social conservatives against gay people on trans people to complain about gnc males that aren't in women's spaces. Crossdressers do not identify as women. Billy Porter in a gown is not in women's spaces.

You don’t seem to recognise anything gnc that isn’t sexual and it’s so weird.

Yes I recognise non sexual gnc things. But we are discussing sexual aspects of gender.

You are also a person who likes to discuss sex and gender. That's why you are here.

Gendered socialisation happens to babies, saying boys like trucks and don’t cry. is that about a sexual kink? Can you talk about any topic without shoehorning it into sex and fetishes? It feels like you talk about that and nothing else.

We are discussing gender non conformity and sexuality is always going to be part of gender the debate.

When these topics come up gc puts it's blinkers on. All it can see is people doing things it doesn't like completely ignoring the majority of sexuality going on.

I'm here defending gnc men in their gnc sexuality. I'd also defend all gnc people and their gnc sexualities.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

What are you basing the idea that porn reflects natural desire on? Do women who have rape fantasies have an innate desire to be raped?

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

I don't think human desires are all perfect politically correct and morally justifiable.

I do think women on average are likely to find dominant men attractive. There are perhaps dark edges to that bias.

To me that explains a lot of consistent human behaviour. That's what I see from the evidence.

It's not the world as I would choose it.