What is gender nonconformity to you?

submitted by HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

What does it look like?

Daryl Hall, 1970. The crowing touch is the shoes.

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/photo-of-hall-oates-photo-by-michael-ochs-archives-getty-news-photo/74274399?adppopup=true

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (32 children)

An issue I have is that the Hall is being very mildly gender non conforming here.

The socially conservative might see this as wildly gender non conforming but I think most liberal people would see this as not boundary breaking.

I don't mean that gc is right wing by that. But I do mean the borders are often tighter.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

An issue I have is that the Hall is being very mildly gender non conforming here.

The socially conservative might see this as wildly gender non conforming but I think most liberal people would see this as not boundary breaking.

No one said Hall was "boundary breaking" here. He was ignoring the boundaries, coming across as oblivious of them, showing that they didn't matter to him at that particular moment in time. The question asked in the thread title was about "gender non-conformity," aka not complying to sex stereotypes; & I answered the one that asked "What does it look like?" specifically.

Your issue with my citing Daryl Hall in the early 1970s as an example of someone who by today's standards came across in certain photos as gender non-conforming & sex stereotype non-compliant seems to stem from you thinking that as a man who is "an actual straight crossdresser," you epitomize gender non-conformity & are this sub's utmost authority on the topic. But in a space where we don't get to see one another & only have words to go by, that's not the impression I get from your posts.

After all, you're the one, not "GC" posters like me, who constantly insists that all human societies & cultures always have had, & must have, very strict boundaries between how the two sexes dress, wear their hair, groom & behave. And you're the one, not GC, who says that all persons within any particular culture must & do abide by those very strict sex-stereotypes to the point that we base our entire personalities & entire lives down to the tiniest detail on them - & that no one ever pays little attention or no mind to them.

To you, the idea that some people might not define themselves according to strict sex stereotypes you hold so dear either doesn't compute, or if it does compute, must immediately be dismissed as exaggerated or made-up malarkey. Because it's only if there are strict sex-stereotyped boundaries, & everyone else constantly focuses on them & always adheres to them, that you personally can get the thrill & turn-on that some men obtain from breaking those boundaries. Or rather, from appearing to break those boundaries on a superficial level when, in fact, you & other men who get off on cross-dressing are actually bolstering those boundaries as you embrace & shore up regressive sex stereotypes & the fetishistic ideas many men have about women.

It seems to bother you immensely that the sex stereotypes which loom so large in your own life & you consider so profound & essential might be seen by others as silly, inconsequential & irrelevant to their own lives - & as regressive, pernicious & misogynistic to boot.

As for the lame attempt to smear "GC" as "socially conservative" and not" liberal" & to insinuate we are "right wing" - oh, c'mon. If anyone comes across as socially conservative, it's you, mate. The views I've seen you espouse on this sub about sex, sex stereotypes & women are so regressively sexist & antediluvian that they're right in line with the right-wing American cross-dressing men from decades ago described by Amy Bloom in "Conservative Men in Conservative Dresses."

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

I would not call Hall oblivious. Slightly ignoring boundaries perhaps.

We're here for debate. You make major claims about this topic and hypocritically complain when I make comments on it. Of course we're going to all make claims about gender. We are all making our claims. You have the right to it.

I do claim all cultures of a decent size have gender norms including expression. They might vary in form and their enforcement but they are there. I do ask for tolerance but I don't expect them to vanish.

I very much do not say the norms must be enforced or that people ought to follow a rigid form of them. That has never been my position. You are imagining that.

Of course I can think of people not conforming to gender norms. I can see androgynous expression in people.

Crossdressers are not setting the rules for men and women on gender. It's absurd to think that.

You want to discuss fetishist ideas men and women have about men and women?

I don't think GC is strictly right wing or conservative however it often takes similar positions, similar rhetoric and falls into alliances.

Amy Bloom in "Conservative Men in Conservative Dresses" does not describe all crossdressers. Are some crossdressers conservative? Of course. There are socially conservative gay people, I'd call them hypocrites.