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[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (70 children)

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

He’s GD beautiful not gonna lie

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, young Daryl certainly was a beaut. A great musician & singer too, & a truly electrifying stage presence. The H&O story is interesting too - they're the most successful recording duo in music history, but in the late 80s they ended up broke (Oates more so than Hall). From their start together in the late 60s, homophobes would deride H&O for seeming to be gay, but their response was always, "So what? What if we are? What would be wrong with that? And what's it to you?" They often made a point in their publicity stills to be shot so it would appear they might be as much a couple as a duo.

http://philadelphiacracksmeup.blogspot.com/2018/09/hall-oates-shotgun-marriage.html

DH looked good when glammed up in 1975 too: https://www.legacyrecordings.co.uk/news/vinyl-of-the-week-silver-album

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/music/hall-oates-they-said-who-do-these-guys-think-they-are-they-will-never-appear-on-tv-again-1.4590638

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (67 children)

An issue I have is that the Hall is being very mildly gender non conforming here.

The socially conservative might see this as wildly gender non conforming but I think most liberal people would see this as not boundary breaking.

I don't mean that gc is right wing by that. But I do mean the borders are often tighter.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

An issue I have is that the Hall is being very mildly gender non conforming here.

The socially conservative might see this as wildly gender non conforming but I think most liberal people would see this as not boundary breaking.

No one said Hall was "boundary breaking" here. He was ignoring the boundaries, coming across as oblivious of them, showing that they didn't matter to him at that particular moment in time. The question asked in the thread title was about "gender non-conformity," aka not complying to sex stereotypes; & I answered the one that asked "What does it look like?" specifically.

Your issue with my citing Daryl Hall in the early 1970s as an example of someone who by today's standards came across in certain photos as gender non-conforming & sex stereotype non-compliant seems to stem from you thinking that as a man who is "an actual straight crossdresser," you epitomize gender non-conformity & are this sub's utmost authority on the topic. But in a space where we don't get to see one another & only have words to go by, that's not the impression I get from your posts.

After all, you're the one, not "GC" posters like me, who constantly insists that all human societies & cultures always have had, & must have, very strict boundaries between how the two sexes dress, wear their hair, groom & behave. And you're the one, not GC, who says that all persons within any particular culture must & do abide by those very strict sex-stereotypes to the point that we base our entire personalities & entire lives down to the tiniest detail on them - & that no one ever pays little attention or no mind to them.

To you, the idea that some people might not define themselves according to strict sex stereotypes you hold so dear either doesn't compute, or if it does compute, must immediately be dismissed as exaggerated or made-up malarkey. Because it's only if there are strict sex-stereotyped boundaries, & everyone else constantly focuses on them & always adheres to them, that you personally can get the thrill & turn-on that some men obtain from breaking those boundaries. Or rather, from appearing to break those boundaries on a superficial level when, in fact, you & other men who get off on cross-dressing are actually bolstering those boundaries as you embrace & shore up regressive sex stereotypes & the fetishistic ideas many men have about women.

It seems to bother you immensely that the sex stereotypes which loom so large in your own life & you consider so profound & essential might be seen by others as silly, inconsequential & irrelevant to their own lives - & as regressive, pernicious & misogynistic to boot.

As for the lame attempt to smear "GC" as "socially conservative" and not" liberal" & to insinuate we are "right wing" - oh, c'mon. If anyone comes across as socially conservative, it's you, mate. The views I've seen you espouse on this sub about sex, sex stereotypes & women are so regressively sexist & antediluvian that they're right in line with the right-wing American cross-dressing men from decades ago described by Amy Bloom in "Conservative Men in Conservative Dresses."

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

I would not call Hall oblivious. Slightly ignoring boundaries perhaps.

We're here for debate. You make major claims about this topic and hypocritically complain when I make comments on it. Of course we're going to all make claims about gender. We are all making our claims. You have the right to it.

I do claim all cultures of a decent size have gender norms including expression. They might vary in form and their enforcement but they are there. I do ask for tolerance but I don't expect them to vanish.

I very much do not say the norms must be enforced or that people ought to follow a rigid form of them. That has never been my position. You are imagining that.

Of course I can think of people not conforming to gender norms. I can see androgynous expression in people.

Crossdressers are not setting the rules for men and women on gender. It's absurd to think that.

You want to discuss fetishist ideas men and women have about men and women?

I don't think GC is strictly right wing or conservative however it often takes similar positions, similar rhetoric and falls into alliances.

Amy Bloom in "Conservative Men in Conservative Dresses" does not describe all crossdressers. Are some crossdressers conservative? Of course. There are socially conservative gay people, I'd call them hypocrites.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (34 children)

Does someone have to be extreme to be non conforming?

Why does non conformity need to be groundbreaking to be nonconformity?

If a woman simply allows her body to remain natural she is seen as non conforming by many, with hairy legs and pits and brows, and without cosmetics.

Is she only gender nonconforming if she does that, and also wears sharply tailored men’s suits, wingtips, a haircut deemed manly, an aggressive personality and a mechanics degree? How many non conforming boxes must one tick before they are not conforming?

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

I don't think a person has to be extreme to be gender non conforming. But the degrees seem to matter to society.

It's complicated by masculinity and femininity being different and therefore non conformity is different for the sexes.

Also as I see it, non conformity is more commonly allowed to be expressed socially by women. Though it appears less in the media. Where as male non conformity is expressed less in both.

The natural hair of women is true but then so is the natural hair's head hair.

The degree of non conformity is an interesting question. But it's very much one of those fuzzy logic, Sorites paradox situations. Surely we can agree on that even if we disagree on other issues?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (32 children)

I’m not saying it’s got a finite limit. It seemed like you were saying it, when saying hall didn’t count because he isn’t extremely gnc.

Personally I think most people are gender non conforming and that the visual aspect of it is only a small part, considering that gender norms are used to so heavily control women’s behaviour in particular.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

I am saying it's illustrative that "a good example" male of male gender non conformity is actually minor. It's also from 30/40 years ago.

I don't see how most people are gender non conforming. If that was the case gender wouldn't be the topic it is. Gender non conformity wouldn't be the issue it is.

Visual aspects are only one aspect but they are a regular aspect of it. Seems to be how gender works.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

Well, more extreme examples of gnc males tend to be offensive and fetishised like drag queens or cross dressers. That fetishisation is extremely gender conforming for males despite them adopting an appearance they think is feminine.

I mean, some bloke wore a tuxedo gown to some dumb popular awards show, it’s hardly as though the example Twain gave is the only possible example. There are plenty of gnc men but of course you won’t see them if you think being gnc in attire is even a particularly large part of it.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

I think "fetish" is being used wrongly here as a moral justification for objecting to drag queens and crossdressers.

The majority of the population sexualise masculinity and femininity. It's natural.

The language that morally condemns gnc males for a fetish is the exact same rhetoric used by ultra social conservatives to in the condemnation of gay men and women, including their gender expression.

There aren't plenty of gnc men by percentage.

It looks like GC's idea of acceptable gnc behaviour in men is what would be acceptable for a gnc woman. Maybe that makes consistent internal logical sense but it doesn't work outside of GC.

GC also then has to deal with internal disagreement over that.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (28 children)

Interesting claim, what do you mean by most people sexualise gender?

Do men get off on being loud and aggressive? Do they find trousers and short hair arousing? Are women super into being submissive according to you?

The judgement is fair imo. There is a shitty moral happening when a man thinks he’s cute and funny because he wears a gown and acts like a horrible caricature of a woman.

Gc accepts a variety of different forms of male expression, just not the handful where they mimic women and get aroused by it. What’s morally questionable about disliking the hypersexualised mockery of oneself?

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

Interesting claim, what do you mean by most people sexualise gender?

Asides from physical sexual characteristics, humans sexualise expressions of gender in a wider sense. But they aren't perfect reflections of each other.

If you look at porn, erotic and reported sexual fantasises of "the straights" you'll see plenty of gendered roles, narratives, behaviours and expressions.

Do you want me to read out the plots summaries of the erotic lit popular with women and the porn popular with men? This is very clear. It's not that men and women are completely different but there are sizable biases.

What’s morally questionable about disliking the hypersexualised mockery of oneself?

Because this isn't all about you. Because you don't get to dictate other people's sexuality.

I think social conservatives calling lesbians a mockery of men, unnatural and perverted are making a moral mistake. They often take disgust and make it an moral issue.

Gender non conformity is going to have sexual aspects too.

GC takes calls male gnc sexual behaviour perverted, fetishistic and a mockery.

But doesn't seem to comment on female gnc sexual behaviour.