All: How have your beliefs evolved?

submitted by [deleted] from self.GCdebatesQT

sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun
you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Well, I suppose they just feel it's not their fight.

It’s an action/inaction thing I suppose. Consider the trolly problem. Trans women are the ones on the second track, the act of banning us from those spaces is pulling the lever so the trolly hits us. Encouraging the ban without an adequate safeguard is an action doing us harm; whether you think that makes it blameworthy is a whole ethical debate.

Trans people could actually make them happen. They have a huge political lobby at the moment. If the LGBT community threw their collective weight towards things like protected prison wings and gender-neutral restrooms, they could absolutely create laws that would mandate them. The LGB has power they can use to help the T. And plenty of non-trans people would vote in favor.

Lgb people could maybe. Trans people can’t. You all really underestimate our level or influence. Look at employment protections, basically universally pushed for and advocated for by trans people for decades and it still only happened judicially rather than something more secure in a statute. Let alone getting something that would cost so much money as a mandated facility change.

I wonder what their reasoning is. Some natal males are terrible, no doubt, but I don't see how any trans woman could be worse than others. There are plenty of male-identifying men who are straight out of a horror movie, killers, rapists, and God knows what else.

I honestly just think some here simply hate trans women. It’s not a logical thing necessarily.

But passing transsexual women have always had access to female bathrooms. There's no lock on the door. As you say, if you're not passing and not comfortable using either men's or women's restrooms, then how does this affect you? Despite self-ID laws, you're still in the same boat. Unless we have dedicated third spaces, then someone on one side or the other is going to be uncomfortable.

I use women’s rooms if no neutral facilities are available which is usually the case. A ban would force me to only go places that have a neutral restroom which are rare in this part of the country.

I say just make a blanket protection for "gender presentation." That protects you and it protects me.

Because it doesn’t protect me. All they need say is they are acting in that fashion not because I am dressed but because I am trans. If they claim that they wouldn’t ban a cis man who looked and dressed like me they could argue it isn’t about presentation but an unprotected belief or even unprotected mental condition (gender dysphoria being excluded specifically from the ADA)

I would strongly oppose any GC person who tried to stop people from adopting based on trans status.

Fair enough but some gc people would disagree with you there.

And of course housing discrimination and voting discrimination should not exist.

But they do and trans people aren’t protected. Part of what if changes do is help prevent those for the lucky that pass. And We still don’t have legal protections for them.

[–]worried19 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don't even think trans women should be "banned" from bathrooms. It would be a hard if not impossible thing to enforce, for starters. But there needs to be some safeguarding.

Trans people have gained enormous political power. If their lobby can pass laws allowing natal males in female prisons and female sports, they could damn sure bring about gender-neutral restrooms or protected prison wings. The White House even changed Title IX to respect gender identity instead of biological sex. If that's not power, I don't know what is.

I honestly just think some here simply hate trans women. It’s not a logical thing necessarily.

I won't ask you to name names, but I sincerely hope that's not the case. And just so you know, I'm worried for you. I know you mentioned you only participate here when you're not doing well mentally. I feel like you express a lot of self-hatred towards yourself as a non-passing trans woman. But many if not most trans women are in that same boat. Your life can still have value and meaning even if you don't look like how society expects.

I use women’s rooms if no neutral facilities are available which is usually the case. A ban would force me to only go places that have a neutral restroom which are rare in this part of the country.

They should be more common, but regardless, I really don't think bans are coming any time soon. GC really has bigger fish to fry at this point. I know you're afraid of men and don't want to be in with them. That's understandable if you've faced violence in the past. I don't want to force you into a men's room either.

All they need say is they are acting in that fashion not because I am dressed but because I am trans.

I disagree, though. What would be their rationale? What they really have a problem with is non-conforming appearance, not how you perceive yourself in your own head. A heterosexual transvestite like theory or a GNC woman like me would not be any more protected against people who dislike how we present ourselves.

But they do and trans people aren’t protected. Part of what if changes do is help prevent those for the lucky that pass. And We still don’t have legal protections for them.

As far as I know, gay people also don't have federal legal protections for sexual orientation either in terms of housing and employment discrimination. They got same-sex marriages, but the other stuff got left behind. It seems to me this would be a fruitful endeavor and a higher priority than some of the things they're currently doing. As far as voting, though, trans people can vote. And the vast majority of radical feminists are not in favor of voter ID.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

As far as I know, gay people also don't have federal legal protections for sexual orientation either in terms of housing and employment discrimination. They got same-sex marriages, but the other stuff got left behind. It seems to me this would be a fruitful endeavor and a higher priority than some of the things they're currently doing.

Some history on what happened with the US federal law known as ENDA: https://www.salon.com/2007/10/08/lgbt/

the vast majority of radical feminists are not in favor of voter ID.

Really? This is news to me. I now live in a state where voters have to show ID & don't know anyone of any political persuasion against the practice. I used to live in state where there was no voter ID, & the polling places were run by people & procedures so lackadaisical there was lots of room for fraud. Can you provide some evidence that "the vast majority of radical feminists" are against voter ID, please?

I understand that many might be against specific laws & movements that use voter ID as a ploy & cover for the real aim disenfranchising certain groups. I am against that too. But that's very different to being against voter ID altogether.

I've long supported organizations & efforts whose aim is to help citizens & residents of the US without IDs obtain them so that citizens can exercise their right to vote; citizens (& residents where applicable) can access important services like Medicare, SS, public education & other state, federal & local benefits; & so citizens & residents, even ones in the US illegally, can have full freedom of movement that includes operating a motor vehicle & flying on a commercial airplane.

Using today's technology & means of outreach that are not just possible but practical, there's no reason for anyone in the US who wants a government-approved ID to be without one. The entire set-up for taking ID photos, printing IDs & laminating them could fit in a briefcase.

There's no reason nowadays to make poor people travel to DMVs when it's easy to go where people who need IDs live & issue them IDs on their doorsteps, or at the local PO, school, grocery store, gas station, senior center, etc. (I've been advocating that booths for issuing IDs be set up wherever people to go to get COVID vaccines, in fact.)Similarly, it's not hard to train outreach workers how to help people without certified copies of their birth certificates or SS cards to obtain them.

https://www.voteriders.org/

https://www.spreadthevote.org/

https://www.demos.org/research/got-id-helping-americans-get-voter-identification

I think supporting such efforts is a better use of my time, money & energy than pretending that in 2021 it's wholly unreasonable to expect people to have photo IDs. I'm surprised to find that some would say this means I'm not a feminist.

Also, I've noticed that many of the same people who vociferously oppose the practice of having to present an ID in order to vote in the US are also advocating for US citizens & residents to be forced to provide proof of COVID-19 vaccination in order to go out for a meal, attend school, enter a grocery store, go to Walmart or attend a sporting event, concert or showing of a film in a theater. Seems oddly inconsistent & more than a tad hypocritical to me. (BTW, for various reasons, I am against having to provide proof of vaccine to access most public places within the US, but have no problem with such being required for international travel. If COVID-19 were a predominantly pediatric disease affecting & putting the lives of children at risk like polio, MMR & mumps, or a teenage/young adult disease like bacterial meningitis, I'd have a different view about schools.)

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for the background on ENDA.

Fair enough, there's been so much Democratic handwringing over voter ID that I figured most leftists were against it because of charges that it disenfranchises poor people of color. I shouldn't assume that's the same view of all radical feminists.