All: How have your beliefs evolved?

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[–]circlingmyownvoid2 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Peaking passes. I don’t know about Fleurista but I would assume the same. The difference in the life of a stealth trans woman and one who can’t pass is a big gap. The need for protections is a lot clearer to people in my position I suppose.

Even leaving aside the constant insults I get, with assertions I have x y z mental disorder and am a raging misigynist worse than “other men”, There’s no common ground that can be found when so many of you are arguing for transition to be inaccessible and pushing policies that would basically remove people like me from society. Surely that’s understandable.

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Fair point. Fleurista has a YouTube channel by the way, in case you wanted to check her out.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXJtylj7hCourJmYC1eFE1g/videos

The difference in the life of a stealth trans woman and one who can’t pass is a big gap. The need for protections is a lot clearer to people in my position I suppose.

But don't you think passing trans women are in favor of protections? Clearly, they would need a protected space in many cases, too. And GC isn't against protected spaces. I know you and I have talked about that before, and you're in favor of dedicated gender-neutral restrooms and locker rooms for people who either don't pass or don't feel comfortable with others of their natal sex.

Even leaving aside the constant insults I get, with assertions I have x y z mental disorder and am a raging misigynist worse than “other men”

I don't think anyone should be insulting you. You've always been very polite. I've never seen you be rude to someone in an interaction. You do have a very negative attitude towards men, but I'm not sure how that means you're a "raging misogynist." Anyway, I haven't seen that from you. Someone actually said you were worse than other natal males?

There’s no common ground that can be found when so many of you are arguing for transition to be inaccessible and pushing policies that would basically remove people like me from society. Surely that’s understandable.

No one wants you removed from society, though. What GC beliefs would prevent you from getting a job, buying a house, voting, marrying, raising kids, etc.? You should be able to live your life just like any other citizen. If we don't believe that you've literally changed sexes (which I don't think you believe either?) it shouldn't affect your ability to go about your daily life like any other person, male or female.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I assume they aren’t against them but they need them less and see the need for them less so surely they are at least less stridently for them.

And GC isn't against protected spaces.

But also not doing anything for them. Since they don’t exist and trans people can’t make them it’s at best a hypothetical solution or at worst a smokescreen depending on the one speaking. Without concentrated action from non trans people such spaces won’t happen. I do believe dedicated single occupancy neutral spaces is the best solution but only action by non trans people can make that happen.

The “worse than other males” has been directed at all trans women not me specifically but I’ve seen a couple of people say such here.

Removal from society is the outgrowth or what you are espousing. Take bathrooms, without access to safe facilities we lose the ability to participate in many facets of public lfe. The net effect of banning us from women’s facilities and not building new ones is essentially a ban from us participating in large sections of public life.

Or the fact that many of you object to dedicated trans protections ( instead saying it should just be for gnc people broadly) which would leave a gap to be exploited by those seeking to discriminate against us.

Categorization of transition as cosmetic as I have seen pushed for not only renders passing an impossibility but essentially deprives all but extremely wealthy trans people necessary medical care for their mental well being.

Whether or not you purposefully and specifically wish harm to us doesn’t preclude harm from the outgrowth of the policies gc sometimes pushes.

Not to mention we can be denied housing for being trans, voter id laws combined with trans people being unable to update id as many of you push for makes that uniquely dangerous and embarrassing, marrying is made far less likely without timely and affordable transition, It’s been directly argued on the old Reddit board that we should be banned from adopting as mentally unfit and combined with transition induced infertility would make raising children. Impossible for many of us. Your (gc not necessarily specially you) policies left to course at least complicates our ability to do those things.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Ironically, I would probably just keep using passing privilege without a care if it weren't for gender critical and radical feminist beliefs leading me to believe that it's wrong to occupy female spaces like that. Maybe GC can help passing transwomen be better advocates for actual trans rights, or at least more active, as strange as that may sound!

Do you still see yourself as transmedicalist? I enjoyed interacting with transmed and truscum communities until it became clear that many if not most of the people I was speaking with believed that transition is the cure to gender dysphoria and therefore no research into preventative medicine or therapies or anything that did not require lifelong medical treatment and social adjustments is necessary. That seems like a key difference between QT/trans and GC beliefs is that GC believes transition is mostly harmful and something to work towards doing away with. That's really tricky, because that is really the most established form of treatment that's available currently and it doesn't seem ethical to just ban exogenous hormones or surgeries without a comparable alternative in their place.

It's rough since we're trying to just have normal lives, but we're enabling a deeply problematic system by transitioning as GC people view it and I would have to agree. There are certainly GC people who aren't very understanding and extend no sympathy for trans people or anyone experiencing gender dysphoria, and that doesn't seem very progressive whatsoever. On the other hand, I can see where we are so wrapped up in our own troubles that we develop tunnel vision and can't see a larger problem.

If you don't mind my asking, how do you think trans women who might not pass, like Miranda Yardley, are able to see things from a gender critical perspective? Or get on with the GC crowd?

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

That's really tricky, because that is really the most established form of treatment that's available currently and it doesn't seem ethical to just ban exogenous hormones or surgeries without a comparable alternative in their place.

It used to be hard for me to judge people who want to "pass" for doing so when we live in a crappy sexist society that does judge you a lot based on your sex (leading also to laws that further have to enforce gendered spaces so women could have a semblance of a normal life in public). On the other hand, I also hate the idea that people are born in the wrong body and need plastic surgeries if these unfair norms cause them anxiety. It's one of those things that I "understood" as much as I understood gender-conforming women as long as they understood that what they're doing is counter-productive to feminist goals.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Do you still see yourself as transmedicalist?

Yes.

That's really tricky, because that is really the most established form of treatment that's available currently and it doesn't seem ethical to just ban exogenous hormones or surgeries without a comparable alternative in their place.

To me transition is an acceptable if unfortunate outcome. I don’t want anyone to transition who doesn’t need to but transition isn’t harmful to those who need it. I suppose to be being a natal woman would be better but I just can’t see “becoming a cis man” as a successful outcome. Turning a trans woman into a cis man seems like a loss to me. But I also want enough safeguards that only those who need to are transitioning. Having a cis man transition wrongly also feels like a loss. I don’t honestly know how I feel about trans men. Wanting to be masculine or wanting to be a man is so wildly foreign to me I just try not to judge them and be supportive.

If you don't mind my asking, how do you think trans women who might not pass, like Miranda Yardley, are able to see things from a gender critical perspective? Or get on with the GC crowd?

Honestly I assume you either deep self hatred or some kind of pathological need to please. I really try not to ascribe that to people but I can’t fathom another reason someone could campaign against their own interests and ability to live.