All: What do you think about "non-binaries" and other "gender identities"?

submitted by BiologyIsReal from self.GCdebatesQT

Some other related questions:

Do you think there are differences between them and people who identify as the opposite sex or not?

What do you think of neo-pronouns?

Do you think people who identify as such should be able to get their official documents changed to reflect their "gender identities" instead of their sex?

all 30 comments
sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun

[–][deleted] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Do you think there are differences between them and people who identify as the opposite sex or not?

I can understand what dysphoria IS. I can understand what transition is. When that's the meaning of transgenderism and we're not denying sex, we can find common ground. Whereas with non-binaryness, over a decade into this and I will never understand what it is. Because it means nothing.

It annoys me on a deep level to be asked to perform empathy for a group of people whose alleged axis of oppression cannot even be defined. I don't care about someone's supposed mystical experience of transcending their sexed body. I am not interested in any spiritual practice that denies the body. That's the Christian shit I grew up with. I DO NOT CARE.

If you have dysphoria and/or are persecuted for being gender nonconforming, I do care. But your inner androgynous or girly boyish shifting states of awareness: fuck off with it forever. Stop thinking it makes you interesting and expecting strangers to accommodate your inarticulable inner life.

Guess I needed to get that off my chest.

[–]FlanJam 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I think of it as a form of self expression, and I wouldn't mind it so much if that was all it was. The problem is they get it all mixed up with gender stereotypes, and then try to force their beliefs on everyone else. I find it especially obnoxious when they try to force it upon other cultures who don't see gender in the same way. But I guess Americans forcing their beliefs on everyone else isn't anything new.

Do you think there are differences between them and people who identify as the opposite sex or not?

People who identify as the opposite sex often have dysphoria or something causing them distress with their bodies. Hence its a more serious issue for them. For nonbinary people, its literally just a label.

What do you think of neo-pronouns?

Impractical. Even some of the most staunch QT people I've seen think they are impractical.

Do you think people who identify as such should be able to get their official documents changed to reflect their "gender identities" instead of their sex?

No, sex is more important.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

But I guess Americans forcing their beliefs on everyone else isn't anything new.

Where I from I never heard of "non-binaries" before. They are a very recent fenomenon and it's quite telling the local name they have chosen for themselves is a literal translation of "non-binary (people)". It's obviously a cultural import.

[–]FlanJam 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yup, afaik non-binary is really only prevalent in American and UK. So it bothers me when they claim non-binary has always existed in every culture, then they point to things like two-spirit or hijra or whatever else. The way they haphazardly conflate all these different cultural concepts into "nonbinary" is so disrespectful.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't know how many people identifying as "non-binary" there are here, but they can all put an X in the sex markers in their documents now (eyerolling).

Yeah, it's unbeliable that so many Americans appropriate and misrepresent things like hijra to further their own ideologies, and then they have the nerve to pose as "anti-imperialists".

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As a concept- I think anything past the T is pure stupidity.

As far as the individual people- I think anything beyond the T is often a need for community/acceptance or a need for attention/to feel special.

Gender is not a personal identity. It’s not personal at all. It was never meant to be, and it’s ridiculous that TQWTF+ just get away with ignoring that truth just because their whole schtick is pretending they don’t understand what words mean or why words have meanings in the first place.

Gender is about sex, as sex pertains to society. It is both societal and directly connected to sex, by definition. It’s intentionally not individualistic. None of these “genders” have any type of connection or relation to our society. In fact it seems like their whole thing is them wanting to be accepted by society and instead not really being acknowledged.

that’s the opposite of gender

And I didn’t even know there was such a thing as an opposite of gender.

How can your gender be that you are completely irrelevant to society?

Particularly when you still have a sex, and thus still have an actual gender (one of the two recognized by all of society, even TQ)? You can’t escape the gender that correlates to your sex, so all of these feel-good genders are just useless. Because gender is not about how anyone labels themselves. It’s about how society labels us based on our sex

Do you think there are differences between them and people who identify as the opposite sex or not?

I think it is much more likely that someone claiming one of these extra special genders is more attention seeking than struggling with mental illness. Though I also think there are some people who cling specifically to “non binary” for similar reasons that someone may be trans.

I also think trans people are much stronger contenders for being a gender separate from the standard two.

What do you think of neo-pronouns

I ignore them.

Do you think people who identify as such should be able to get their official documents changed to reflect their "gender identities" instead of their sex?

I think every person’s legal documents should be honest. Your actual sex, the one you’re born, should be what’s listed on those documents. Because that’s what’s true, regardless of how you identify.

[–]kwallio 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't really have a lot of sympathy for people who say they are non-binary. I have no idea what that really means except "I'm not like the other girls/boys" and "I'm super special pay attention to me". I understand the impulse to attempt to opt out of gender BS but the solution is not a new made up identity.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Hardly any different to kids being goth or emo or wannabe gangsters or any other subculture as an identity.

Adolescents discovering themselves via radical self expression, and proclaiming to be who they are but it’s intermingled with the overly simplified ideas surrounding political liberalism.

Do you think there are differences between them and people who identify as the opposite sex or not?

Yeah. I think a lot of them are lost kids trying to find a community.

What do you think of neo-pronouns? Very silly

Do you think people who identify as such should be able to get their official documents changed to reflect their "gender identities" instead of their sex?

Nope

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Hardly any different to kids being goth or emo or wannabe gangsters or any other subculture as an identity.

I actually think what is going on with all this "identify as" stuff today it is very different to what happened in the past.

Used to be, no one "identified as" any of these subcultures or as anything else. You either were or weren't a goth, emo or actual gangster just the way people were or were not Beatle maniacs, Stones's fans, Sharks, Jets, glam rockers, Tories, Labour members, Republicans, Democrats, liberals, conservatives, moderates, peaceniks, vegetarians, carnivores, heterosexuals, gay men, lesbians, sons, daughters, fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers... and so on. None of these descriptors are or were "identities" that only existed in the minds of individuals; they described verifiable facts about people that they either were or were not.

In the past, people who aspired to belong to a subculture saw themselves as wannabes; they did not claim actually to be what they aspired to be. If you were studying or training to become part of a profession, trade, workplace, social club or political organization, you were a student, pupil, trainee, apprentice, disciple, pledge, recruit, tyro, novice, mentee, neophyte, raw recruit, fledgling, probationer, novitiate and so on - you weren't a full-fledged member until you had met certain criteria. No one became part of any group or subculture simply by making a declaration.

Even in groups that are open to everyone just by signing up & registering, like political parties or the official fan club of X band or artist, you still have to sign up & register to become a member. Many groups & orgs require paying dues & keeping current with dues on an annual basis in order to claim membership.

People have always had fantasy selves and ideal self-images. Many people over the course of history have also spent a good deal of their time daydreaming about who they wished they were & the fantasy lives they imagined for themselves & believed they should be leading. Like Walter Mitty. But nowadays, millions of people, particularly young people, are pretending that their fantasy selves & ideal selves are who they actually are, & they are confusing their daydreams with reality.

Authenticity & "living your truth" now = fakery and lying about who you are to yourself & others.

This is very different to any other youth phenomena I've witnessed in my lifetime, & I believe I'm probably the oldest person who posts on this sub (by many years too).

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah I can see that, and I think you’re right. It’s strange and doesn’t make sense to me but I agree with you.

[–]anxietyaccount8 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Some people who are non-binary appear to barely have body dysphoria, unlike trans people. A lot of people are identifying as "non-binary" because they want to fit in and be special.

In online spaces it's common to see non-binary people blaming "cis straight women" for random problems. It's the new "not like the other girls."

On the BDSM subreddit, somebody non-binary said that she's fine with her male partner dominating her, but not with being called "a woman". I honestly never expected this misogyny would come from other females.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think the whole enterprise whereby people personally "identify as" various "genders," "gender identities," as well as other "identities," is completely asinine, puerile, performative, phony and unhealthy.

When individuals "identify as" something, they are either claiming to be something they are not - such as a member of the opposite sex, a person of no sex, or a person in between the sexes - or to be something that's only been invented recently, such as non-binary, otherkin, or some other newfangled "identity" meant to make them seem less ordinary than they are.

I think everyone would be much better off if the newly-fashionable phrase "I/you/she/he/they identify as" & the concept behind it were retired from use.

To see how ridiculous it all is, whenever you hear people talk about their "gender identities," replace the word "gender" with "flavor."

[–]grixitperson 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No difference. They're just using a custom terminology, which doesn't change anything. I don't care about neopronouns. Documents should reflect reality.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I feel like most non-binary identities are silly. As others have said, for most, it seems similar to being “goth” or “emo”. It’s just a like a new way of labeling some type of alternative expression, but worse because other people are asked to participate.

Do you think there are differences between them and people who identify as the opposite sex or not?

I feel like it can be different or it can be the same. I feel like for transsexuals, identity isn’t the important part. We have identities, of course, but like changing your body to be like the opposite sex or passing as the opposite sex are what that is, rather than just being about an identity. That’s how I think of it at least. I guess that could apply to some non-binary people, but I feel like it’s usually not about that.

What do you think of neo-pronouns?

They don’t make sense as pronouns because pronouns are supposed to make language easier. Neo-pronouns seem almost like nicknames.

Do you think people who identify as such should be able to get their official documents changed to reflect their "gender identities" instead of their sex?

No. I do feel like having sex not be visible unless someone really needs to know it would be nice though.

Edit: I looked back and realized I misunderstood the last question! I thought it was about non-binary things on IDs, not sex markers. I changed the sex markers on all my identification years ago after I had bottom surgery (which was required to do that then) and it made moving through the world a lot easier. I feel like there might be ways to make it less visible so it wouldn’t be as necessary, but I wouldn’t want to be outed and potentially discriminated against because of a sex marker. I made a thread discussing this awhile ago.

https://saidit.net/s/GCdebatesQT/comments/62sl/gc_legal_sex_change_is_there_room_for_compromise/

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Answering my own questions from yesterday, I think there are many simmilarities between people who claim to be "non-binary" or other alternative "gender identities" and people who claim to be the opposite sex. Both base their identities in an ideal that cannot be physically obtained, rely a lot on stereotypes, require a lot of external "validation", and dismiss the importance of biological sex. I also read some accounts of people who use a "non-binary identity" as a stepping stone to either identify as the opposite sex or to detransition. Because of this, it surprises me that some people don't believe in the "non-binary" stuff, yet they still say TWAW and TMAM or believe in "true trans". I don't know, I feel like questioning the former would eventually lead to questioning the latter.

I too think neo-pronouns are anoying.

As for official documents, I think they should always reflect reality.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

I think gender is messier than gender theory often presents. I take a dynamic gender component view.

Most people are straight and conforming. A small percentage are behaviourally variant.

So that's a behavioural spectrum with two poles. A sharp bimodal model.

Gender variant people are always trying to fit into that society of a large population of conforming people.

A lot of the time gender variant people seem to be trying to name underlying frameworks going on at an unconscious level. Working with a Western society that says "men and women are the same" while they live in a society where most people, men and women, act very much like they are not. GC and QT have a take on why that is the case. GC sees it as entirely cultural, QT takes a rather "quantum" position, both nature and culture.

A very small percentage of people seem to have a problem identifying with any regular identity. I think attaching an identity to a group is a perfectly natural human activity. It connects to self identity, sexual identity, morality, philosophical place within the world. This is often stronger in early adulthood where people create an identity. That does not mean those identities are popular or have any wider meaning.

I think covers some "otherkin" people. I think there is something natural there but it is dysfunctional. There's a natural process there that is misfiring to a degree.

But I'm more of a realist in that I think we should keep male and female, as difficult as that is for some variant people. Something closer to truscum. I think there are societal benefits to that.

So I think someone like Bunce is in the wrong.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

QC sees it as entirely cultural

I don't.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Me neither. Theory keeps saying this despite some of us have said we don't think so. I think the blank slate theory is more a thing in the so called liberal feminism, really.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

So what's your take? How would you describe it?

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

That there is interplay between culture and biology. That men have a greater propensity for violence. That's not to say that it's inevitable, but it is possible.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I agree with everything there. That's pretty much one of my basic opinions here.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I was of course meaning GC there not "QC."

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I kind of think of 'non-binary' being akin to 'androgynous', but I realize it might not be the same for those who identify as such. I see them as people just freeing themselves from gender role expectations and restrictions, which is admirable and really cool, but it sounds like pathologizing the desire to escape those expectations and restrictions. Like, it seems like the whole point of being non-binary would be to leave behind gender rather than form that escape from gender into a gender itself (which is kind of funny!)

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think the invention of "non-binary" has been one of the more destructive things to come out of the new gender movement. It solidifies the idea that if you don't "feel" like a man or a woman (ie: identify with stereotypes), then you are in fact not a real man or woman and should call yourself something else instead.

"Non-binary" is not just a harmless identity or phase that involves pronoun changes and haircuts. For many young people, it's a gateway to a more solidified transgender self. And many people who identify as non-binary do go on to take hormone and have surgeries, despite in many cases experiencing no bodily distress. They insist on denying the reality of biological sex and instead claim that they are magically sexless beings based on the way they feel about being male or female. As a GNC woman who happens to dislike being female, I find non-binary claims illogical and occasionally even offensive. It almost feels like female non-binary people in particular just think they're better than the rest of the female population.

[–]adungitit 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Do you think there are differences between them and people who identify as the opposite sex or not?

I'd say a negative fixation on one's sexed characteristics to the point of amputating them is a serious mental illness, though one very much rooted in societal pressures. Nonbinaries mostly seem to be just a new brand of NotLikeOtherGirls that's not willing to take it as far as the women who insist they're men.

What do you think of neo-pronouns?

If pronouns suddenly don't signify sex, then I fully support whatever bs a person can think of for their pronoun. In fact, I find de-sexing third-person pronouns, as an element of English that isn't even close to universal, far less batshit crazy than pretending you can de-sex literal human beings just by changing their pronouns.

Do you think people who identify as such should be able to get their official documents changed to reflect their "gender identities" instead of their sex?

If we can all play-pretend that men are women because they want to be, then the same should apply to nonbinaries. Why is one utter lie somehow better than another utter lie? Both of them are the sex that they are and that's a fact, which makes their claims to the opposite sex, or no sex, as valid as their claims to being a wolf or a dragon.