QT, if gender is innate to identity

submitted by HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 3 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 4 fun -  (4 children)

I would think you are wanting to prevent it but don't seem to be interested in any understanding that might help that.

You want a man not to be submissive in order to prove that straight women are on average not attracted to dominant men?

Or the other trait.

You want a man not express femininity in order to prove that straight women are on average not attracted to masculinity?

Why can't you say yes they are attracted to those things, because of society, that a man breaking those norms is a good thing. You'd say it's because I am demonstrating a connection between dominance and masculinity. But I don't think society is taking lessons from crossdressers, mildly dominant or submissive. At all.

You have no real interest on what women may think about and you want to naturalise abuse by using euphemisms like "erotic play".

Of course I have an interest.

To be honest, I have no idea why you come here to discuss about this stuff if you're so conviced that you know far better what women want than we do.

Well you're convinced of your ideas too right? It's enjoyable to chat about this.

Funny how you said nothing about what we said in the thread about sex stereotypes in the bedroom.

I commented there. I'm commenting here.

I'll respond there.

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I said the how and why were not relevant for our particular conversation, that is all. I could ask you how you developed this paraphilia, but given you think you were basically born this way...

And I didn't say all the other things you think I said, either. The problem is that you see the world through your paraphilia lens. You can only see romantic and sexual relationships in terms of domination and sumission, therefore, when I challenge your ideas you think I want men to be all dominant and masculine. I don't that at all, I think this is a very messed up way to see human relationships. Why would I want women to be subjected to abuse of men?

By the way, I think it's pretty funny you think I want you to man up. The way ignore you keep ignoring what women have to say about our own experiences, they way you pretend to listen to us, the way you think you know better than us what we really want, the fact that you have a paraphilia (or several, maybe), they way you obsess over sex... all of that scream stereotipically male behaviour, dude. You keep saying how you're feminine and are rejected because of that by women. Yet when you talk about women naturally desiring to be subdued by dominant men, you sound a lot like a run-of-the-mill MRA. Sumissive in the bedroom or not, you don't sound stereotipically feminine like at all.

And I disagree that society don't listen to male cross-dressers. They have a lot of political power right now. It's just that most of them are calling themselves "women".

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

And I didn't say all the other things you think I said, either. The problem is that you see the world through your paraphilia lens. You can only see romantic and sexual relationships in terms of domination and sumission, therefore, when I challenge your ideas you think I want men to be all dominant and masculine. I don't that at all, I think this is a very messed up way to see human relationships. Why would I want women to be subjected to abuse of men?

I don't think power is the only aspect of sexuality at all. It is a recurrent one however. I don't agree with every expression of it.

What femininity in men do you accept then?

By the way, I think it's pretty funny you think I want you to man up. The way ignore you keep ignoring what women have to say about our own experiences, they way you pretend to listen to us, the way you think you know better than us what we really want, the fact that you have a paraphilia (or several, maybe), they way you obsess over sex... all of that scream stereotipically male behaviour, dude.

Well my experience of women of GCdebatesQT is not the same experience women in general.

Are you saying stereotypes are true? Of course I don't claim to be woman. I express an interest in expressing aspects of femininity in my culture. I have to reason out why that is.

You keep saying how you're feminine and are rejected because of that by women.

I say that in general women prefer masculinity. I really don't think that's a controversial idea.

never mind any questions about power.

Yet when you talk about women naturally desiring to be subdued by dominant men, you sound a lot like a run-of-the-mill MRA. Sumissive in the bedroom or not, you don't sound stereotipically feminine like at all.

Specifically on Red Pill men, one aspect I think is true, I don't think men and women are in general attracted to the same things.

Straight men are generally attracted to femininity and straight women are generally attracted to masculinity. I think that's pretty natural.

And I disagree that society don't listen to male cross-dressers. They have a lot of political power right now. It's just that most of them are calling themselves "women".

And where are transmen in that argument? Do they have opinion or influence? Are they really butch women with a lot of political power?

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah, no surprised at all that you agree with MRAs...

Are you saying stereotypes are true?

There is a difference between saying someone fits the stereotypes of a group and saying all members of a group are like that. Anyway, you can observe behavorial differences between women and men, even if you limit such observation to an specific cultural group. However, how much of that is due to nature or nurture is hard to tell in many cases. The fact is social expectations affect us all since we're born and we cannot get rid of the influence of culture when studying sex differences. That is why I think your assertions about women and men are overly simplistic: you see a pattern and immediately assume that must be the natural state of things and that cannot be changed.

What femininity in men do you accept then?

I would prefer that society had less baggage about what men and women must do. I'd like women be treated as people, and that men were not jacking off of the abuse of women. I'd prefer men were not claiming to be women because they are not "manly" enough or whatever.

And where are transmen in that argument? Do they have opinion or influence? Are they really butch women with a lot of political power?

I was talking particularly of trans identified males only because they are the ones who really hold the power within the trans movement. There are two reasons for this. First, historically most people with a cross-sex identification were males. It's only recently that females whith a "trans identity" are increasing in numbers. However, most of these females are still quite young and, therefore, unlikely to be in positions of great influence. The second reason is females who identify as trans are still treated as women and they must prioritize the wishes of males who identify as trans.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

By action I think I'd observe that most people behave in accordance to those patterns. Most people act on the sexes having different sexual behaviours. I don't care if that is labelled MRA or Red Pill. That tribalism doesn't interest me.

There is a difference between saying someone fits the stereotypes of a group and saying all members of a group are like that.

Oh I completely agree.

That is why I think your assertions about women and men are overly simplistic: you see a pattern and immediately assume that must be the natural state of things and that cannot be changed.

It's not immediate and it's not an absolute thing. It's usually a bimodal model where quantity has a quality all of it's own.

I would prefer that society had less baggage about what men and women must do.

I probably would to. At the same time I think there are limits to it.

Also I come back to that issue of gender non conformity often being cross gender conformity.

That often gender non conforming people are effectively waving a flag of the opposite sex.

I'd like women be treated as people, and that men were not jacking off of the abuse of women. I'd prefer men were not claiming to be women because they are not "manly" enough or whatever.

But "not manly enough" is a euphemism for femininity here right?

Regarding abuse I completely understand your anger and concern.

But men engaging in any form of non conforming sex play are not the icons of female abuse.

Does porn contain a lot of what is sexual abuse of women by men? Yes, yes it does.

We have to be honest about how popular erotica is, with strong gender norms and in the broadest terms sexualised power, with women.

All the studies point to that. That's a far far bigger demographic that non conforming men.

We can say this ought not to be the case, this is the case because of social reasons.

Also I am saying masculinity and femininity are sexual separately from any category of power and sex. You do see and recognise that claim I make? I am not claiming all sex is power or all is some extreme version of that.

I was talking particularly of trans identified males only because they are the ones who really hold the power within the trans movement. There are two reasons for this. First, historically most people with a cross-sex identification were males. It's only recently that females whith a "trans identity" are increasing in numbers. However, most of these females are still quite young and, therefore, unlikely to be in positions of great influence. The second reason is females who identify as trans are still treated as women and they must prioritize the wishes of males who identify as trans.

I don't agree with everything trans activism says and does. This seems to remove all agency from transmen as if they don't exist, don't have opinions and have only just appeared.

You are conflating crossdressers who specifically do not identify as transwomen at the same time as ignoring transmen. I don't think that's reasonable.