QT, if gender is innate to identity

submitted by HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (4 children)

People who conform to opposite sex gender norms despite their environment is proof gender is bullshit?

[–]Penultimate_Penance 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Also you aren't understanding the argument. Gender roles consist of a collection of cultural beliefs about men and women. For example there are many people who believe that women are inherently bad at logic and anything that requires it like math, the sciences and philosophy. Women who get into the sciences, math and philosophy and succeed prove that the regressive sexist belief that women don't logic well is bullshit. When women are no longer denied access to education they do great, go figure, but sexist gender roles are a big fucking deal, because women all over the world throughout history up to the present day have been denied an education, because of these sexist beliefs about women's gender roles. Deifying and identifying with gender harms women full stop. Trans Identity and Feminism are incompatible full stop. Gender identity is rotten to it's core, because when drill you down to what gender actually is it is sexism plain and simple.

Many male trans individuals spout off horrifically sexist regressive beliefs about women and play act their sexist idea of womanhood and claim that that makes them a woman then turn around and expect women to be a ok with it. That's to put it bluntly batshit.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 3 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

I don't think men and women are behaviourally the same but I think the differences have to be limited. It has to be down to one or two things. I think the differences would be more like bi modal preferential desires.

For example, women were often employed as "human computers." Doing the maths for larger projects.

Why did computing and those roles become more male dominated? Because the pay went up and men sought that pay. The male power aggression aspect edged women out. Nothing to do with cognitive ability. Men in competition with other men feel they need the money.

Even a slight average difference might have effects on a larger scale. So not a big difference between the sexes, nothing to do with ability, only that average slight aggression power dynamic.

The singular power aggression dynamic might explain a lot of common differences we see across cultures, the crime difference, male propensity for organised violence and sex crime.

Not an absolute difference but an average which is more clear in larger populations.

This does not mean "patriarchies" are stable or the only system. Societies can find that bias in male behaviour has to be better managed. It has to be controlled for greater good of society.

I'm speculating here as are we all because the science is not clear.

There are people who identify as "trans women" saying outrageous sexist things. I'm not justifying them. They are frankly absurd.

I still can't see men and women on average behaving innately identically. Sex is one of those things they have different behaviour on.

[–]Penultimate_Penance 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

We can acknowledge that there may very well be some average behavioral differences that may be innate to men and women respectively, but it is extremely difficult to separate nature from nurture. Sexism is a very likely reason why women are pushed out of certain fields and why pay raises when a field becomes male dominated and falls when it is female dominated. Women's work isn't respected, and it isn't valued.

Telling women they're not succeeding, because they aren't aggressive enough is just more sexism. Many women leave tech and high earning careers, because the bullying & sexual harassment just isn't worth it anymore.

If a male person behaves in a more stereotypically feminine fashion that does not make that male person a woman, that just means that some male people have personalities that are considered feminine. This proves that feminine and masculine gender roles being innate are bullshit, because if it was there wouldn't be so many exceptions to the rule.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

We can acknowledge that there may very well be some average behavioral differences that may be innate to men and women respectively,

Right. On average in some areas.

but it is extremely difficult to separate nature from nurture.

It is difficult I agree.

Sexism is a very likely reason why women are pushed out of certain fields and why pay raises when a field becomes male dominated and falls when it is female dominated. Women's work isn't respected, and it isn't valued.

Yes I think sexism does take over at times. It often is related to rank misogyny.

Telling women they're not succeeding, because they aren't aggressive enough is just more sexism. Many women leave tech and high earning careers, because the bullying & sexual harassment just isn't worth it anymore.

But are we acknowledging that baseline of aggression that men might have?

If a male person behaves in a more stereotypically feminine fashion that does not make that male person a woman, that just means that some male people have personalities that are considered feminine. This proves that feminine and masculine gender roles being innate are bullshit, because if it was there wouldn't be so many exceptions to the rule.

To me though this creates a clash between "acknowledging that there may very well be some average behavioral differences that may be innate to men and women"

and "feminine and masculine gender roles being innate are bullshit"

There is some pattern to some things being innate and some things being cultural.

I understand with things being "bullshit" at times, at the same time I don't see how all of it is going to go away.