QT, if gender is innate to identity

submitted by HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]strictly 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (4 children)

I find this too evasive. I don't think it describes the patterns.

I think you misunderstand me somewhat, and it describes the pattern I see, but you are free to disagree as you see a different pattern from your perspective.

I think the trans argument that gender expression is only "personality" doesn't play out.

Here is where I think you misunderstand me, as I don't believe that gender expression is only personality for most trans people. I believe in blanchardianism (not everything though). I think some transition due to being very GNC, but I don't think most transition for being very GNC in the west. I think among transitioners AGP/AAP is very prevalent, and usually they are more concerned about the body they want to have, not everyone though. Just as some gynephilic people might be more attracted to femininity than biological females, I think some people with autogynphilia might be more into femininity than desiring a female body.

There is a pattern of trans people being far more likely to identify as gay relative to their gender identity and far more likely to identify as gnc relative to their gender identity than the average population.

What are you trying to say here? You mean males who identify as women are more likely to be masculine and attracted to females than the average female? I agree with that, many of these male transitioners are "transbians" as you say, way more than we would expect had they truly been "female". But that seems like a weird argument for you to make. So are you actually trying to say that unusually many of the males who transition are homosexual and GNC? I agree with that too, homosexuals and GNC people are over represented among transitioners, but I think the AGP group is an even greater group. AGPs might be same-sex attracted too though (but usually not exclusively) and GNC (some crossdressed for sexual/gender euphoric reasons before transition). Note, this not a judgement of people with AGP/AAP, I don't really care if someone has AGP/AAP, I just don't think it makes someone the opposite sex.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 3 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 7 fun -  (3 children)

Here is where I think you misunderstand me, as I don't believe that gender expression is only personality for most trans people. I believe in blanchardianism (not everything though).

OK.

Partial blanchardianism ?

Isn't that where gc takes the bits it likes about calling men paraphiliacs and rejects the bits about essentialising gender? Would be my expectation.

I'm not a blanchardian. I think aspects of the behaviours are true but I don't find it overall workable. I'll get to that.

I think some transition due to being very GNC, but I don't think most transition for being very GNC in the west.

I really don't know the numbers these days.

I think among transitioners AGP/AAP is very prevalent, and usually they are more concerned about the body they want to have, not everyone though.

You think the "hsts" don't care about their bodies? They have less physical disphoria?

Just as some gynephilic people might be more attracted to femininity than biological females, I think some people with autogynphilia might be more into femininity than desiring a female body.

Females can be gynephilic. Isn't that a lesbian? Lesbians can be attracted to femininity in others.

Do you mean men might be more attracted to femininity than biological females?

I think you mean autogynephilia?

What are you trying to say here? You mean males who identify as women are more likely to be masculine and attracted to females than the average female?

Yes.

But then women who identify as same sex attracted are more likely to be gnc.

I agree with that, many of these male transitioners are "transbians" as you say, way more than we would expect had they truly been "female". But that seems like a weird argument for you to make.

I think it points to three traits, orientation, expression and gender identity being related.

I know gc would not accept the words gender identity.

But it is a thing people are identifying here. So that trait then.

So are you actually trying to say that unusually many of the males who transition are homosexual and GNC?

If there was no relationship to sexuality it would the same as the gay straight ratio.

In blanchardian terms "HSTS" are over represented.

I agree with that too, homosexuals and GNC people are over represented among transitioners,

Compared to what though?

but I think the AGP group is an even greater group. AGPs might be same-sex attracted too though (but usually not exclusively) and GNC (some crossdressed for sexual/gender euphoric reasons before transition). Note, this not a judgement of people with AGP/AAP, I don't really care if someone has AGP/AAP, I just don't think it makes someone the opposite sex.

I more like to get to the theory and meta reasons of what's going on.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Females can be gynephilic. Isn't that a lesbian? Lesbians can be attracted to femininity in others.

No one can be just "gynephilic" - as it would be just regular sexuality. And sexuality is not paraphilia. Lesbians are attracted to females, not to femininity. "Lesbians attracted to femininity" is one of main ideas behind state homophobia, and main idea of TRA arguments. And obviously it is not true, because lesbians are loving butch women/females, lipstick women/females and in general any kinds of women/females.

I think you mean autogynephilia?

Autogynephilia is impossible in women, same as autoandrophilia is impossible in men. Imagioning yourself as woman while being a woman, and imagining yourself as man while being a man - is not strange and is normal. When watching romance or porn and imagining yourself on a place of a person of your own sex is not something strange either. There are cases when person is aroused from their own body and from themself - it happens very rarely, and I don't remember how it called (gender identity crowd is calling it "autosexuality", but obviously it is not a sexuality, and word "autosexual" means masturbation or sex act on your own, not attraction to yourself). Women can be autoandrophilic and men can be autogynephilic.

But then women who identify as same sex attracted are more likely to be gnc.

Sexuality is not an identity.

If there was no relationship to sexuality it would the same as the gay straight ratio.

In blanchardian terms "HSTS" are over represented.

Previously majority of transitions were homosexual men. Later (around late 70s) around half of transitions became heterosexual men. Nowadays homosexual men are very small minority among transgender people. Only demographics where majority of transitioners are homosexual - are kids and teens, but anyone older is mostly heterosexual men or women. It is not strange that in research made in 80s with collected info from 70s - homosexual men are big percentage of those transsexuals. Especially considering that those times were very homophobic, and pretending to be opposite sex was almost the only way for homosexual people to openly live together.

But then women who identify as same sex attracted are more likely to be gnc.

Which is mostly because of how society see them and because they are already "non-conforming" in at least one thing - sexuality. For lesbians it is also some sort of freedom, as there no need to be pretty for men and conform to stereotypes to have chances to find someone. Same with women who decided to be child free or to never marry - they are similarly (or even more often) are gender non-conforming, because "conforming to feminine gender" is exhausting and what most women do not like, as it takes a lot of effort, time, money and it hurts both physical and mental health. Outliers are very often gender non-conforming.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

Autogynephilia is impossible in women, same as autoandrophilia is impossible in men.

Psssh the cis straights talk about “feeling like a woman” or “feeling like a man” in regards to sex all the time. Sounds like gender euphoria in a sexual context to me!

[–]adungitit 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, but it's usually in the context of certain gender roles that are very obviously social. Women did not evolve to look like modern Western feminine women, such a thing simply isn't possible. Wearing a hijab makes some women "feel like a woman". Having long hair makes women "feel like a woman". Women weren't born with long hair and hijab skin flaps covering them, these are social expectations placed on them, usually to a woman's detriment.

Certainly men and women are raised to "feel more like a man/woman" through emulating patriarchal norms that are damaging to women. You might speak of "gender identity" in that way, but we already have "gender roles" for that. This should be considered unhealthy and sexist in any actual feminist movement.