QT, if gender is innate to identity

submitted by HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (15 children)

I don’t think it is forced. I think what they like is shaped rather than them pretending to like it. It’s not a force to act like that, but rather they enjoy those things perhaps in part because they are psychologically associated. It’s not work, just tastes being shaped. You see the distinction?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

They like them because they are coded as male or female? Like a transwoman likes pink naturally because pink is coded as feminine?

Seems like a distinct lack of personality outside of gender and gender performance. People’s tastes are usually shaped by far more than whether it’s coded to the sex they want to be.

Either way, it seems like you’re saying gender identity is inherent and the expression varies according to what’s the cultural norm at the time.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (13 children)

Not necessarily just because they are coded male or female. But because they have associations that are reinforced otherwise. To use the parental example. The abusive father is a sports fanatic constantly pressuring the child into competitive sports. This builds an association that makes the child dislike competitive sports. Maybe the mother likes say romantic comedies and shares experiences watching them with the child that the child enjoys as spending time with the parent that loves them. That creates a positive association. It’s not that they are coded male or female but rather that they are associated with that parent.

And to the more social example, one might wish to be seen as less masculine or more feminine generally. You don’t like your male body or don’t like man. You want to be associated with feminine traits. So you explore interests and the fact that they are seen as feminine makes you like them more as people react to your participation in those interests. The reverse for masculine. Like you try a hobby, say working on engines, but people perceive it and therefore you as masculine which reduces any enjoyment you make have experienced from this expiremental involvement. So even unconsciously you come to dislike things society tells you are masculine because it feels bad to be seen as masculine so you enjoy the thing less. So you naturally develop interests that align with the cultural perception.

Either way, it seems like you’re saying gender identity is inherent and the expression varies according to what’s the cultural norm at the time.

I believe that’s an accurate discription of my feelings on it.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Those things being coded to the parent don’t make sense in relation to a kid thinking they should be the opposite sex.

Again, it sounds like unprocessed trauma. Assigning the traits of one person to anyone resembling them, and assigning the traits of another to a pedestal that is at once unobtainable and the only way to get value. That’s a situation that requires extensive therapy and a patient willing to accept that they have built their entire life and identity around an unprocessed trauma, and the childish coping mechanism that split the world into black and white perceptions.

No wonder depression is sky high when wondering if observers will associate the activity being performed as not of the desired sex. It’s very abnormal to be so emotionally invested in observers, let alone with imagined thoughts an observer might or might not have. Subconscious or not, it must be exhausting to be constantly running such an unhealthy system of thought and value.

Glad I do understand what you mean about title question. I think that’s the most productive we’ve been together, haha.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 4 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 5 fun -  (11 children)

Those things being coded to the parent don’t make sense in relation to a kid thinking they should be the opposite sex.

I’m working from personal experience so it may be atypical but once I was about 3 we lived in pretty remote rural setting. 99 percent of the time my mom was the only woman I saw outside of school and my dad was the only man I saw period until like middle school at least. Doesn’t it make sense that would be generalized?

Trauma is formative sure, but why seek to undo a perfectly valid personality simply because it was shaped in part by trauma?

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I’m working from personal experience so it may be atypical but once I was about 3 we lived in pretty remote rural setting. 99 percent of the time my mom was the only woman I saw outside of school and my dad was the only man I saw period until like middle school at least. Doesn’t it make sense that would be generalized?

Yes, it makes sense that you & some other individuals might that take what you personally perceived to be true of your own mother & your own father & attributed their qualities to all women & men generally. But not doing this also makes just as much sense. In fact, to many of us, not doing as you have done makes much more sense.

Many people who have grown up with a narrow frame of reference would arrive, & have arrived, at very different conclusions to yours, especially as they matured out of phases of childhood & adolescence in which everyone is naturally self-referential, self-centered & mistakenly believes everyone else is looking at us & judging us. Other people who've grown up in your sort of situation might just as easily reason that because it's a very big world out there & they have seen only a teeny-tiny slice of it, then chances are good that other people will turn out to be as different to their mum & dad as they are to be exactly like them.

The position you are taking is similar to saying that because a lot of kids have pet goldfish in childhood, and they don't have close contact with any other kind of pet fish, & the only fish they customarily eat or see being eaten is tuna or the mystery fish in "fish fingers," then it's reasonable for children to grow up generalizing that all the fish in the world's seas & freshwater bodies must be just like goldfish, tuna or mushed-up nondescript white flaky fish in fish fingers. Which is ridiculous because most kids read books, see movies, TV shows & media. Even kids who are raised in strict religious settings will have heard of Jonah & the whale.

Your claim that "99 of the time my mom only woman I saw outside of school" means in school you saw other women & you have chosen to filter them out. Why is that? Were the other women you saw in school different to your mother in any respect?

Moreover, your references to watching soap operas with your mom means you had a television & you watched it as a kid. Were all the women you saw on TV really exactly like your mom? Did they have all the sex stereotypical "feminine" traits you now associate with women? As a child, did you never see movies with scary, evil women in them like "The Wizard of Oz" or "Snow White" or "Hansel & Gretel"? Didn't you hear or read any fairytales & books?

When you say "my dad was the only man I saw period until like middle school at least" can it really be true you went your whole early childhood without ever seeing or hearing of a male doctor, dentist, letter carrier, mechanic, police officer, home repairman, taxi or truck driver, neighbor, shop keeper, priest or other clergy, politician, soldier, train conductor, road crew member, construction worker, farmer, tractor driver, cowboy, Indian "brave," world explorer, pirate, gunslinger, sheriff, captain of industry, businessman, president, prime minister, pope, astronaut, inventor, firefighter? Didn't you read any story books? You never heard of the knights of the roundtable, Robin Hood, Columbus, Captain Hook, Old MacDonald, Bob the builder, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed or God the father, etc? No shows like Mr Rogers, Gunsmoke, Thomas the Tank Engine, The Simpsons, Family Guy or Malcolm in The Middle on your TV? You never saw cartoons or movies with characters like Elmer Fudd, the cast from Toy Story or Sponge Bob Square Pants?

When you watched soap operas what happened to all the male characters you saw - did you just tune them out?

Trauma is formative sure, but why seek to undo a perfectly valid personality simply because it was shaped in part by trauma?

No one is seeking "to undo" your personality or anyone else's "perfectly valid personality." We are pointing out that your particular POV is not universal as you seem to think it is. The way you see the two sexes, that you see your own self, that you see your own self in relation to others, & the way you are preoccupied with how others perceive you, or you imagine they are perceiving you, are not the way everyone else sees these things.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

I’m not asserting that generalizing is universal or the cause of all gender variance. Just a cause for some tastes in some people.

Your claim that "99 of the time my mom only woman I saw outside of school" means in school you saw other women & you have chosen to filter them out. Why is that? Were the other women you saw in school different to your mother in any respect?

By an large not really. It’s selective because they were teachers of children and administrators in schools. That attracts a certain personality not that different from my mom. There was variance but in the broad strokes really not that difference. Other that our very butch PE teacher but even she was quite warm and caring.

Moreover, your references to watching soap operas with your mom means you had a television & you watched it as a kid. Were all the women you saw on TV really exactly like your mom? Did they have all the sex stereotypical "feminine" traits you now associate with women? As a child, did you never see movies with scary, evil women in them like "The Wizard of Oz" or "Snow White"? Didn't you hear or read any fairytales & books?

Sure there were some female villains but also they tended to be quite feminine. It was the 80’s. Even he-man and she-ra’s villains were extremely feminine coded.

When you say "my dad was the only man I saw period until like middle school at least" can it really be true you went your whole early childhood without ever seeing or hearing of a male doctor, dentist, letter carrier, mechanic, police officer, home repairman, taxi or truck driver, neighbor, shop keeper, priest or other clergy, politician, soldier, train conductor, road crew member, construction worker, farmer, tractor driver, cowboy, Indian "brave," world explorer, pirate, gunslinger, sheriff, captain of industry, businessman, president, prime minister, pope, astronaut, inventor, firefighter? Didn't you read any story books? You never heard of the knights of the roundtable, Robin Hood, Columbus, Captain Hook, Old MacDonald, Bob the builder, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed or God the father, etc?

And exaggeration. Man I saw regularly then. And the ones I did see were often my fathers friends who were just like him. Thanks did have a woman as my pediatrician I remember. Beyond that I don’t have a robust childhood memory set but I’m told that’s common with trauma in childhood. And god is pretty counter to your ideal. I was raised southern baptist. That god really embodied the violent, wrathful and temperamental image that my father built in me for men.

As to other media, there’s a difference between fictional exposure and actual exposure. Particularly when you are talking about development.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I’m not your therapist and cannot explain to you why a personality formed around a childhood trauma is not a valid or healthy personality, but damn that’s not healthy.

For general purposes, Unprocessed trauma being a formative factor is not healthy and ignore the fact that personality disorders and other mental health issues take root in that unprocessed trauma.

A personality is barely a personality when it is unable to exist without the trauma ever being addressed or processed. A healthy adult personality cannot come from a childs emotionally and cognitively immature reaction to a trauma.

What you describe sounds closer to bpd than anything regarding having a traumatic event shape your entire personality.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (7 children)

That doesn’t discribe bpd at all. Again eith the ableism to attempt to discredit.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Guess you don’t know much about bpd sufferers then.

It’s not ableism. It’s pointing out a similar exposure to trauma and total lack of healthy coping mechanisms becoming a foundation for the personality. Where does that condemn or belittle the people it happens to? The disorders being discussed aren’t even disabilities lmao.

Where do I try to discredit anything? I’m not saying anybody in particular has any particular disorder. I’m saying the description given to me is similar to what my clients used to express. My clients who were all adults with BPD.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (5 children)

It’s an adult hominem attack. Plainly. Not even a subtle one. You can’t walk it back.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

How?

Seriously, maybe it’s my autistic inability to see what I don’t intend but how is comparing two different disorders that stem from unprocessed trauma an attack, an insult, or anything other than a comparison?

Where do I say that this is a moral failure of the person suffering it? Where so I suggest they are lesser for it?

The lack of coping mechanism? Is that the alleged insult? Cause that’s just what happens when kids are traumatised and don’t get healthy role modelling or therapy. It’s not saying they fucked up and chose wrong.

Is it stemming from the popular idea that BPD=BAD so any mention of it is an attack? Cause that’s closer to an insult than what I’ve said.

Don’t just vaguely insist ‘this is an insult this is an attack’ tell me how I have made that mistake.