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[–]FlanJam 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (73 children)

If I could steel-man QT, they'd probably made a distinction between gender-identity and gender-expression. The gender-expression can change over culture and time. The gender-identity is the innate part.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

I’ll welcome steel-manning for an answer! I think this would be the most likely answer, gotta wonder how it makes sense to select preferences based on how they are gendered rather than simply having a preference.

[–]FlanJam 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

Not all of them will admit this, but some will admit they're just using gender stereotypes to imitate their desired sex as much as they can. That's the most honest, charitable explanation imo.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

Totally agreed. How else could so many men present themselves as a cartoonish display of “femininity” and expect to be taken seriously? They see women as the trappings of femininity, not as people.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (24 children)

Would you say some women present cartoon versions of men?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

Some attempt it, yes.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (22 children)

Do you distinguish between explicit trans and non trans.

Are the non trans ever cartoons?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

I don’t believe there is any need to differentiate, and frankly include drag queens and cross dressers in the cartoonish parody example.

Everyone else is capable of being a cartoonish mockery of something if they choose to make if the focus of their life, or even talk about it constantly.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 7 fun1 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 7 fun -  (20 children)

You think strongly gnc women are cartoonish mockery?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

No.

[–]BiologyIsReal 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (44 children)

But in what do they based their "gender identity" if not "gender expression"? So, how can then "gender identity" be innate?

[–]FlanJam 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

The most charitable explanation for gender-identity I can give is some internal feeling trans people have that makes them desire to be the opposite sex. But many QT wouldn't accept that because it'd be transmed or something. Also, they would claim everyone has gender-identity, but conveniently only trans people are aware of it.

The other common explanation for gender-identity is some nebulous internal soul thing that I can't steel man to save my life lol

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (5 children)

It’s not a desire to be something, its an instinctual identification with something and then a desire to be recognized as the something in a society that is obsessed with labeling people as somethings.

[–]FlanJam 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

What's the difference between an 'instinctual identification with something' and a 'desire to be something'? Honest question.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (2 children)

One is imprinting like ducklings the other is a non-innate desire

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What evidence do you have to say that humans imprint like ducks?

[–]FlanJam 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You think trans people imprint like ducklings? Also, desire isn't necessarily non-innate. A desire can be entirely innate.

[–]adungitit 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Does this "instinctual identification" also apply to other races? Animals? Mythical creatures? Disability? Mental illness?

[–]strictly 7 insightful - 6 fun7 insightful - 5 fun8 insightful - 6 fun -  (35 children)

But in what do they based their "gender identity" if not "gender expression"? So, how can then "gender identity" be innate?

I think some trans people who are gender non-conforming relative biological sex base their gender identity partly on gender expression but I think many base it on the body they want to have, and then they invent a narrative where they more or less imagine all people as needing to inhabit a certain body type, that way they can say they are just like the opposite sex for wanting to inhabit that body (by assigning the opposite sex the same desire they themselves have).

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (34 children)

I find this too evasive. I don't think it describes the patterns.

Most people are gender conforming. They are not indifferent to gender expression in themselves or others.

I think the trans argument that gender expression is only "personality" doesn't play out.

There is a pattern of trans people being far more likely to identify as gay relative to their gender identity and far more likely to identify as gnc relative to their gender identity than the average population.

I don't think it's unrelated.

[–]strictly 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (18 children)

I find this too evasive. I don't think it describes the patterns.

I think you misunderstand me somewhat, and it describes the pattern I see, but you are free to disagree as you see a different pattern from your perspective.

I think the trans argument that gender expression is only "personality" doesn't play out.

Here is where I think you misunderstand me, as I don't believe that gender expression is only personality for most trans people. I believe in blanchardianism (not everything though). I think some transition due to being very GNC, but I don't think most transition for being very GNC in the west. I think among transitioners AGP/AAP is very prevalent, and usually they are more concerned about the body they want to have, not everyone though. Just as some gynephilic people might be more attracted to femininity than biological females, I think some people with autogynphilia might be more into femininity than desiring a female body.

There is a pattern of trans people being far more likely to identify as gay relative to their gender identity and far more likely to identify as gnc relative to their gender identity than the average population.

What are you trying to say here? You mean males who identify as women are more likely to be masculine and attracted to females than the average female? I agree with that, many of these male transitioners are "transbians" as you say, way more than we would expect had they truly been "female". But that seems like a weird argument for you to make. So are you actually trying to say that unusually many of the males who transition are homosexual and GNC? I agree with that too, homosexuals and GNC people are over represented among transitioners, but I think the AGP group is an even greater group. AGPs might be same-sex attracted too though (but usually not exclusively) and GNC (some crossdressed for sexual/gender euphoric reasons before transition). Note, this not a judgement of people with AGP/AAP, I don't really care if someone has AGP/AAP, I just don't think it makes someone the opposite sex.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 3 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 7 fun -  (8 children)

Here is where I think you misunderstand me, as I don't believe that gender expression is only personality for most trans people. I believe in blanchardianism (not everything though).

OK.

Partial blanchardianism ?

Isn't that where gc takes the bits it likes about calling men paraphiliacs and rejects the bits about essentialising gender? Would be my expectation.

I'm not a blanchardian. I think aspects of the behaviours are true but I don't find it overall workable. I'll get to that.

I think some transition due to being very GNC, but I don't think most transition for being very GNC in the west.

I really don't know the numbers these days.

I think among transitioners AGP/AAP is very prevalent, and usually they are more concerned about the body they want to have, not everyone though.

You think the "hsts" don't care about their bodies? They have less physical disphoria?

Just as some gynephilic people might be more attracted to femininity than biological females, I think some people with autogynphilia might be more into femininity than desiring a female body.

Females can be gynephilic. Isn't that a lesbian? Lesbians can be attracted to femininity in others.

Do you mean men might be more attracted to femininity than biological females?

I think you mean autogynephilia?

What are you trying to say here? You mean males who identify as women are more likely to be masculine and attracted to females than the average female?

Yes.

But then women who identify as same sex attracted are more likely to be gnc.

I agree with that, many of these male transitioners are "transbians" as you say, way more than we would expect had they truly been "female". But that seems like a weird argument for you to make.

I think it points to three traits, orientation, expression and gender identity being related.

I know gc would not accept the words gender identity.

But it is a thing people are identifying here. So that trait then.

So are you actually trying to say that unusually many of the males who transition are homosexual and GNC?

If there was no relationship to sexuality it would the same as the gay straight ratio.

In blanchardian terms "HSTS" are over represented.

I agree with that too, homosexuals and GNC people are over represented among transitioners,

Compared to what though?

but I think the AGP group is an even greater group. AGPs might be same-sex attracted too though (but usually not exclusively) and GNC (some crossdressed for sexual/gender euphoric reasons before transition). Note, this not a judgement of people with AGP/AAP, I don't really care if someone has AGP/AAP, I just don't think it makes someone the opposite sex.

I more like to get to the theory and meta reasons of what's going on.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Females can be gynephilic. Isn't that a lesbian? Lesbians can be attracted to femininity in others.

No one can be just "gynephilic" - as it would be just regular sexuality. And sexuality is not paraphilia. Lesbians are attracted to females, not to femininity. "Lesbians attracted to femininity" is one of main ideas behind state homophobia, and main idea of TRA arguments. And obviously it is not true, because lesbians are loving butch women/females, lipstick women/females and in general any kinds of women/females.

I think you mean autogynephilia?

Autogynephilia is impossible in women, same as autoandrophilia is impossible in men. Imagioning yourself as woman while being a woman, and imagining yourself as man while being a man - is not strange and is normal. When watching romance or porn and imagining yourself on a place of a person of your own sex is not something strange either. There are cases when person is aroused from their own body and from themself - it happens very rarely, and I don't remember how it called (gender identity crowd is calling it "autosexuality", but obviously it is not a sexuality, and word "autosexual" means masturbation or sex act on your own, not attraction to yourself). Women can be autoandrophilic and men can be autogynephilic.

But then women who identify as same sex attracted are more likely to be gnc.

Sexuality is not an identity.

If there was no relationship to sexuality it would the same as the gay straight ratio.

In blanchardian terms "HSTS" are over represented.

Previously majority of transitions were homosexual men. Later (around late 70s) around half of transitions became heterosexual men. Nowadays homosexual men are very small minority among transgender people. Only demographics where majority of transitioners are homosexual - are kids and teens, but anyone older is mostly heterosexual men or women. It is not strange that in research made in 80s with collected info from 70s - homosexual men are big percentage of those transsexuals. Especially considering that those times were very homophobic, and pretending to be opposite sex was almost the only way for homosexual people to openly live together.

But then women who identify as same sex attracted are more likely to be gnc.

Which is mostly because of how society see them and because they are already "non-conforming" in at least one thing - sexuality. For lesbians it is also some sort of freedom, as there no need to be pretty for men and conform to stereotypes to have chances to find someone. Same with women who decided to be child free or to never marry - they are similarly (or even more often) are gender non-conforming, because "conforming to feminine gender" is exhausting and what most women do not like, as it takes a lot of effort, time, money and it hurts both physical and mental health. Outliers are very often gender non-conforming.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Previously majority of transitions were homosexual men. Later (around late 70s) around half of transitions became heterosexual men.

I'm not sure this is true, or at least I'm not sure it's necessarily true across the board everywhere in the world. Can you cite your sources please? Such as the research you mention from the 80s with collected info from the 70s. Thanks.

In the Anglophone world, celebrity "transsexual" Christine Jorgensen, an American who surgically "transitioned" in the 1950s, was a homosexual, but the two most famous persons to surgically "transition" in the early 70s - James Jan Morris of the UK & Richard Raskin Renee Richards of the USA - were heterosexual males who had been married to women & fathered children.

ETA: prior to "transition," both Morris & Raskin/Richards were also very stereotypically "masculine" men whose lives had been devoted to manly pursuits beyond siring children: Morris was a much-lauded historian & travel writer with a high-profile job on the nearly all-male staff of the Times (of London) who went on solo expeditions exploring the far corners of the earth, including Muslim countries where he would not have been allowed to travel on his own (or at all) if he had been a woman. Morris was also one of the select macho guys in the male-only crew to "conquer" Mt Everest for the first time in history with Sir Edmund Hillary. Similarly, Raskin/Richards attended a prestigious male-only HS (Horace Mann) & all-male university (Yale), where he was a proverbial "big man on campus" due to his prowess as an athletic star in four sports: American football, baseball, swimming & tennis. This was in an era when there were no school sports for girls & women in the US & in many schools girls & women didn't even have PE classes. Raskin/Richards was scouted by & offered a position with the NY Yankees, something that has never happened to any girl or woman in history. After uni, Raskin/Richards went to medical school at a time when strict quotas were in place to keep the number of women in US medical schools & the medical profession very low in order to insure that medicine would remain an almost entirely male preserve. Richards/Raskin also joined the US military where he became an officer & spent much of his service on the tennis circuit as the US Navy's top-ranked (male) tennis player. Again, this was at a time when there was no tennis or any other sports for any female soldiers or officers in the US military.

In the 60s & 70s, "sex change" clinics/services in the USA associated with big-name hospitals & medical schools such as Johns Hopkins, UCLA, Stanford & Washington University in St Louis MO might have shown a bias towards approving gay males for "transition" surgeries over heterosexual males with autogynephilia. But elsewhere - such as at the world-famous clinic in Casablanca run Georges Burou (the man who invented modern-day penile inversion surgery) & the one in Trinidad, CO in the US run by Stanley Biber - no such preference was shown. So long they had the money, & in the case of going abroad a valid passport, heterosexual males could get a "sex change" from the late 50s, early 60s on just as easily as gay males.

But of course the situation might well have been very different in other parts of the world, such as Scandinavian countries where a majority of "sex change" surgeries would have been done through government-run health care systems.

One of the problems figuring out the proportions of HSTS vs heterosexual males with AGP in the past & how the proportions have changed, or might have changed over time, is that in previous eras, a lot of gay males lived as part-time or FT transvestites without wishing or trying to become "transsexuals" - & heterosexual men with AGP of the same time periods would cross-dress mostly in private or in limited social circles on a PT basis.

Whilst historically the world was indeed hostile to all homosexuals, in the West it was always taken for granted that some of the gay male community were transvestites - & in gay & arty, avant garde circles gay male transvestites were accepted; there was no expectation or pressure for them to have "sex change" surgeries or to claim or pretend that they actually were women. But today, all such persons - gay guys who would have been transvestites in the past & straight guys who are AGP - are lumped together in one undifferentiated, catchall category & dubbed "transgender." What's more, those who are "transgender" today are far more likely than ever in the past to "live as" or claim to be "trans" 24/7/365. At the same time, however, het male cross-dressers likes Pips Bunce & Eddie Izzard who only cross-dress PT are considered to be just as much a part of the "transgender community" as are those who "live in girl mode" FT.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

So where are you on how things ought to be?

Do you think surgery and hormones are "where it all went wrong" ?

Who is treating "gender correctly" as a culture or an individual, as it ought to be done?

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

Autogynephilia is impossible in women, same as autoandrophilia is impossible in men.

Psssh the cis straights talk about “feeling like a woman” or “feeling like a man” in regards to sex all the time. Sounds like gender euphoria in a sexual context to me!

[–]adungitit 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, but it's usually in the context of certain gender roles that are very obviously social. Women did not evolve to look like modern Western feminine women, such a thing simply isn't possible. Wearing a hijab makes some women "feel like a woman". Having long hair makes women "feel like a woman". Women weren't born with long hair and hijab skin flaps covering them, these are social expectations placed on them, usually to a woman's detriment.

Certainly men and women are raised to "feel more like a man/woman" through emulating patriarchal norms that are damaging to women. You might speak of "gender identity" in that way, but we already have "gender roles" for that. This should be considered unhealthy and sexist in any actual feminist movement.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

No one can be just "gynephilic"

Pretty sure gynephilic as a term basically means attraction to women and was not a term invented by Blanchardianism. It is describing regular sexuality.

And sexuality is not paraphilia.

The theory of Blanchardianism says that autogynephilia is an inverted sexuality. That's it's basic idea. That's the theory of what it is.

Lesbians are attracted to females, not to femininity. "Lesbians attracted to femininity" is one of main ideas behind state homophobia, and main idea of TRA arguments. And obviously it is not true, because lesbians are loving butch women/females, lipstick women/females and in general any kinds of women/females.

I can't really see that being strictly true. Yes lesbians do love butch women. But lesbians compared to straight women are far more likely to be sexually attracted to femininity that straight women. Even if you can find an example of straight women attracted to femininity. We are describing patterns.

Autogynephilia is impossible in women, same as autoandrophilia is impossible in men. Imagioning yourself as woman while being a woman, and imagining yourself as man while being a man - is not strange and is normal. When watching romance or porn and imagining yourself on a place of a person of your own sex is not something strange either. There are cases when person is aroused from their own body and from themself - it happens very rarely, and I don't remember how it called (gender identity crowd is calling it "autosexuality", but obviously it is not a sexuality, and word "autosexual" means masturbation or sex act on your own, not attraction to yourself). Women can be autoandrophilic and men can be autogynephilic.

I mean it really does seem to be something people do.

I think there are different aspects to sexuality. I don't think erotic dressers are completely comparable to women, but I don't think it's a million miles either. I don't think straight men and lesbians necessarily have the exact same sexuality but I think it's likely triggered by the same natural desire, for comparison.

Sexuality is not an identity.

I don't know what you mean by that. Sexuality is part of someone's identity. What else would it be?

Previously majority of transitions were homosexual men. Later (around late 70s) around half of transitions became heterosexual men. Nowadays homosexual men are very small minority among transgender people. Only demographics where majority of transitioners are homosexual - are kids and teens, but anyone older is mostly heterosexual men or women. It is not strange that in research made in 80s with collected info from 70s - homosexual men are big percentage of those transsexuals. Especially considering that those times were very homophobic, and pretending to be opposite sex was almost the only way for homosexual people to openly live together.

By percentage of the population "HSTS" are over represented.

Which is mostly because of how society see them and because they are already "non-conforming" in at least one thing - sexuality. For lesbians it is also some sort of freedom, as there no need to be pretty for men and conform to stereotypes to have chances to find someone. Same with women who decided to be child free or to never marry - they are similarly (or even more often) are gender non-conforming, because "conforming to feminine gender" is exhausting and what most women do not like, as it takes a lot of effort, time, money and it hurts both physical and mental health. Outliers are very often gender non-conforming.

It really depends on what you mean by non conformity. Flagging femininity does not always an all consuming activity.

What does this say about straight gnc women? Are you saying men can't find gnc women attractive? Are you saying lesbians don't find feminine women attractive?

We are long past the idea that not marrying is not gender conforming. We've had gay marriage for years now here in Europe.

I think gnc behaviour is more likely innate. It's one of the reasons for tolerance. Forcing men and women to conform is pointless and makes then unhappy. It's not a burden on the rest of society to have masculine women or feminine men.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

We are long past the idea that not marrying is not gender conforming.

Also, historically in countries like the US, there was always a small but significant number of women who never married. For example, in the US from 1890-1940, the percentage of women over age 35 who had never married remained pretty steady at 8-10%. The % started dropping in the late 1940s through the 1970s.

The time when the proportion of women 35+ who had never married in the US was lowest was 1980.

In all of the 20th century, the time when the proportion of women over who 35 had never married was highest was in 1920. Only in 2010 did the proportion of never married women over 35 reach the same level - 10% - as it had been in 1920.

https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/working-papers/2012/demo/sehsd-wp2012-12_presentation.pdf

In the baby boom era & cultural milieu (Roman Catholic) I grew up in, it wasn't at all uncommon for women to choose never to marry. Lots of Catholic girls & women became nuns (my own father had his heart broken in 1939 when his HS GF informed him she was dumping him to enter a convent). Other women lived as "spinsters" or with women in "Boston marriages." In my own family, there were a number of women on both sides in the 19th & 20th centuries who never married. Some entered religious orders, but most were "maiden aunts."

When I was growing up in the 50s & 60s, my parents also counted a number of never-married women (& men) in their social circle & I had "lay" teachers who never married. Nobody thought anything of it. Some people back then were simply said to be "not the marrying kind." Sometimes this was code for gay or lesbian, but it also communicated to me & other kids that marriage isn't for everyone - & that's perfectly fine & "normal."

[–]strictly 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

Partial blanchardianism ?

Blanchard is skeptical about the existence of paraphilic females, I'm not, I've talked to too many paraphilic females to be able to pretend they don't exist. I believe in what makes sense to me.

Isn't that where gc takes the bits it likes about calling men paraphiliacs and rejects the bits about essentialising gender? Would be my expectation.

I can’t unsee what I see so I will call a paraphilia a paraphilia, doesn’t mean I think it’s shameful. Regarding essentialism I don’t know what kind of beliefs you consider essentialising gender so you need to be more specific there.

Females can be gynephilic.

Yes.

Isn't that a lesbian?

Not necessarily, I tend to distinguish between gynephilia and female-attracted, I use the former for the broader etiology of being attracted to what is female associated and the latter for the sex-orientation outcome of being attracted to females.

Lesbians can be attracted to femininity in others.

If she exclusively attracted to female people I would consider her a lesbian, but if she is attracted to feminine males too, then no.

Do you mean men might be more attracted to femininity than biological females?

I think some gynephilic men have their gynephilia tied to femininity instead of females, and that would make them not straight as they would be into feminine males too, although in a gynephilic way.

I think you mean autogynephilia?

No, I meant both. I think what exists in gynpehilia can usually exist in the auto version too.

But then women who identify as same sex attracted are more likely to be gnc.

I.e translated to my words female-attracted males are on average more likely to be gender conforming relative biological sex than homosexual males, I think that’s true on a group level.

I think it points to three traits, orientation, expression and gender identity being related.

Why the identity? Unless you are referring to the AGP itself. I do however suspect the gender identity thing AGP/AAP trans people talk about often is based on AGP/AAP, the romantic part of it (gynephilia can be romantic so I think the auto version can be romantic too). But I am somewhat unsure what you referring to here.

Compared to what though?

Compared to heterosexual people, and I think that’s mainly because of gender norms.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (8 children)

agree with that, many of these male transitioners are "transbians" as you say, way more than we would expect had they truly been "female"

I didn’t realize “females” were supposed to keep to some “natural” percentage of non-lesbians.

[–]strictly 6 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 6 fun -  (7 children)

I didn’t realize “females” were supposed to keep to some “natural” percentage of non-lesbians.

Expect, not supposed. Had they been "female" we would have expected the same distribution of sexual orientation as among females, and we are not seeing that.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (6 children)

Seems like you’re presuming that survey results = actual number of lesbians in real life = “natural” biological rate of homosexuality among women, is that correct?

[–]strictly 7 insightful - 6 fun7 insightful - 5 fun8 insightful - 6 fun -  (5 children)

Seems like you’re presuming that survey results = actual number of lesbians in real life = “natural” biological rate of homosexuality among women, is that correct?

Oh so you think lesbians actually outnumber straight women? Lesbians are the smallest sexual minority according to data, but if it would have to fit the sexual orientation distribution of the woman-identifying males then lesbians would the largest group, outnumbering even straight women.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Last USA survey was interesting, there amount of lesbians decreased drastically (from 1.5% to 0.8%), but amount of transmen and female non-binary increased from 0.1% to something like 3-4% of population. And at the same time amount of gay men not changed.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

No one can say without good data.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (14 children)

There are also far more of us who you would identify as gay relative to birth sex. I don’t have a link handy but one relatively large scale survey had about 1/3 of us identifying as gay, bi, and straight.

That puts us by your reckoning as 30 percent homosexual and 30 percent by which is wildly above average.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (13 children)

So there is a pattern between trans identities and sexual orientation that does not correlate with the background population?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (11 children)

I believe so. We are substantially more likely to be bi or homosexual (by your reckoning) than either sex’s norm.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (10 children)

And more likely to be gnc relative to gender identity.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (7 children)

That I can’t speak to.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I feel like that’s just so easily observable from being around trans people.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

Hard to separate that from the social component though

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

My thinking is the patterns show at least two probably three innate traits going on, in relation to biological sex.

Orientation, expression, identity.

If they were not innate they would not be so consistent.

If they were directly related they would be more one to one.

If they were not indirectly related there would be no connecting pattern at all.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

Also between being intersex, trans, and lgb* sexual orientations.

*there are more but the study(s) was frames in those terms I believe.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

Instinctual identification with perceived sex trait groups and unconscious replication of norma and behaviors