Both: Which side has the pandemic helped more?

submitted by [deleted] from (self.GCdebatesQT)

The circumstances surrounding and caused by it seem to have favored one side over the other for me, interestingly. I doubt I would even know what QT or GC mean right now if not for it, being forced to spend so much time inside by myself (with internet access, naturally).

Has the pandemic helped one side or viewpoint's case over another? Did it have any significant effect on the debate and opposing beliefs, or any 'indoctrination'? Since it is ongoing, what more of an effect, if any, do you see the pandemic having on trans rights and women's rights?

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[–]FlanJam 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I remember at the beginning of the pandemic, QT made themselves look bad when they complained life-saving surgeries were prioritized over trans surgeries. But that was a brief passing moment. Other than that, I dunno if one side really benefited over the other due to the pandemic. At least, none that I've noticed.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Oh I feel like maybe I heard about that, that probably did no favors for people complaining. Do you think much has changed at all for either side, even without advantages or benefits? Or do you think there was a significant impact that the pandemic had on the overall argument(s)?

[–]FlanJam 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I guess I've noticed some infighting among QT, perhaps due to being cooped up and online during the pandemic. But idk if that's really significant or just regular infighting that any group will have.

There was also the Bell v Tavistock case and the Maya Forstater stuff, but that just happened to overlap with the pandemic, not so much a result of it.

But overall I dunno, I can't think if any significant changes that happened because of the pandemic. But I haven't been paying close attention so I could be missing something lol

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

So maybe whatever changes are happening or happened or will happen are less about the topics and more about just sort of how humans behave with each other? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but that seems like it could just very well be the case!

There was also the Bell v Tavistock case and the Maya Forstater stuff, but that just happened to overlap with the pandemic, not so much a result of it.

Do you think that those things occurring during the pandemic had more or less impact because of it? Did the pandemic affect the impact of instances like those at all?

[–]FlanJam 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So maybe whatever changes are happening or happened or will happen are less about the topics and more about just sort of how humans behave with each other? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but that seems like it could just very well be the case!

That could be the case, I definitely think infighting is prone to happen especially for groups with deeply held beliefs. I'm kinda surprised we haven't seen more infighting among QT tbh, but maybe I'm just not paying attention.

Do you think that those things occurring during the pandemic had more or less impact because of it? Did the pandemic affect the impact of instances like those at all?

Maybe more people were made aware because more people are spending time online, that's how I found out. But idk how significant that number would be.

[–]worried19 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I don't think there's been an appreciable benefit for either side. At one point, I heard that teenage girls were detransitioning in large numbers because they were at home away from their friend groups. But then I also heard that others were transitioning because they were spending all their time in their houses online and on social media. Six of one, half dozen of the other.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Do you think it really changed anything about the larger overall argument and 'gender vs sex' issues? I don't really know what that looked like before the pandemic and lockdowns. It seems like people could have gotten out of their echo chambers, but maybe they just reinforced them hunkering down in preferred online spaces like you say, that's sort of a disappointing thought.

[–]worried19 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Not really. I've been involved in the debate since 2017 and there have always been highs and lows for both sides, but I can't think of anything specific to the pandemic.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Hm, that's interesting--if it's really been much the same for at least that many years, what an awful, wild ride. This year is halfway over and it seems like so much has happened, it's kind of sad if that's just been that way for years. I'm a passionate person, but WOW it's no surprise to see intimidating displays of it across people who've been following closely for a good while regardless of their alignment.

Do you think the pandemic has had or will have any sort of lasting impact specific to the gender and sex debate at all?

[–]worried19 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'd say overall I see progress for the GC side. Back in 2017, I peaked because that was right when things were starting to get crazy. I was like, "this isn't right." There were very clearly wrong things going on. The craziness has ramped up since then, but I feel like there's more pushback now. Before, it felt like GC was screaming into the void. There were no books being written, almost no articles, no one even seemed to be aware of issues like child transition. TRAs flatly denied such things were happening, and it wasn't at all on the "normies'" radar.

Since then, GC has made some gains. More people are becoming aware though books like Irreversible Damage, and there has been some legal progress like the Tavistock decision. There's more public pushback. On the minus side, TRA has doubled down on their insanity and are pushing things like actual censorship, irreversible hormones and surgeries for children who are not even teenagers, unaltered natal males in women's sports, and other things that would not have flown 4 or 5 years ago. They have also made legal gains.

So it's back and forth, but in general I'm hopeful. I feel like the current situation is unstable and untenable. We're teetering on the edge, and the bubble is bound to burst eventually. In the meantime, it feels like TRAs are frantically trying to push their beliefs as hard as they can into law, into kids' media, into schools, to try to maintain their position. But I don't think they'll be able to. Not ultimately. What they want is just too far removed from reality.

Do you think the pandemic has had or will have any sort of lasting impact specific to the gender and sex debate at all?

I really don't think so. At least not that I can tell. It may be that there is some unknown impact that will become clear later down the road.

[–]kwallio 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I think mostly its been a wash. I feel like the qt position has been pulled out into the open more, but the backside of that is that its been increasingly obvious that women and the reality based community are losing, badly.

The qts have made quite the asses of themselves, from the NYT article about someones nb status being meaningless when she was alone to the whining about trans surgeries being put off due to covid.

For me personally the pandemic has made me less inclined to give qt the benefit of the doubt and has essentially made me more extreme in my terfery. I used to be of the "its not a big deal to use neo/cross sex pronouns, costs $0 to be polite" type of person and have gone hard in the other direction because being "nice" is never reciprocated.

I think in my case being isolated from my very liberal very woke very pro-trans friends sort of did this, because you never want to be the one with no friends but a year without hanging out with them made me realize that they weren't really my friends anyway. Very few of them ever made the effort to check in, so screw it.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think mostly its been a wash. I feel like the qt position has been pulled out into the open more, but the backside of that is that its been increasingly obvious that women and the reality based community are losing, badly.

I feel the same about QT's problems being more exposed. My closest friends and family have even asked me about some of those problems and what's happening to women's rights--even some really supportive, 'pro-trans' people are at least noticing and troubled by these things. Although that seems to be how many if not most people have gotten into GC feminism. But if QT's problems are being brought more to light, wouldn't that help women more?

For me personally the pandemic has made me less inclined to give qt the benefit of the doubt and has essentially made me more extreme in my terfery. I used to be of the "its not a big deal to use neo/cross sex pronouns, costs $0 to be polite" type of person and have gone hard in the other direction because being "nice" is never reciprocated.

I go so back-and-forth about this. It's really, really hard to not be polite, and it sounds bad in my mind, but the way many radical feminists deliberately embrace that form of social disobedience on principle not only makes sense from a woman's perspective (or so I intuit), but I can see the logic behind it being kinder to not entertain or encourage what might be considered mental illness or just harmful/unsafe behavior.

I think in my case being isolated from my very liberal very woke very pro-trans friends sort of did this, because you never want to be the one with no friends but a year without hanging out with them made me realize that they weren't really my friends anyway. Very few of them ever made the effort to check in, so screw it.

That's very interesting! I am sorry you had to spend so much time away from friends, but that's really great that you grew because of that experience, and you recognize that. That's really admirable. The pandemic really sure seems to have a knack for revealing both the genuinely caring and uncaring people in our lives.

[–]kwallio 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I go so back-and-forth about this. It's really, really hard to not be polite, and it sounds bad in my mind, but the way many radical feminists deliberately embrace that form of social disobedience on principle not only makes sense from a woman's perspective (or so I intuit), but I can see the logic behind it being kinder to not entertain or encourage what might be considered mental illness or just harmful/unsafe behavior.

I actually feel this pretty hard. Everyone pretty much is socialized to not rock the boat and to accomodate people, pushing back against people is hard.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is why sometimes I really envy psychopathic lack of care about what others think of them. It's quite a test of conviction, there's like nothing really to reinforce or encourage breaking that kind of nicety. You have to really, really believe in what you're doing since it can seem rude or hateful (or even violent to some).

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I don’t know that I think either side has benefited at all, but I do feel like I’ve noticed the past year and a half that there’s more open criticism about transition, the trans community and qt ideology. People are peaking and people who’ve been peaked are speaking more openly. And even if it’s not a “peak” situation, people seem generally more comfortable and willing to say that some things seem unfair to women (and even men and kids) or don’t make sense. I don’t think it’s this drastic wave of backlash or anything that is going to scare qt, but I think it’s an interesting shift that could lead somewhere in a few years lol

I think it’s because we’ve all been focused on news and media so much, and trans issues and discussions are so prevalent. People didn’t have as many things to do and be distracted by, and we’ve been glued to social media more than ever, so even the people who weren’t paying attention to all the gender politics couldn’t help but end up somewhat informed, even if just about the super-sexuality memes (which would lead to finding out the reason for the super straight thing- and then you’re down a rabbit hole, if you get me)

I think this happened with a lot of important discussions, obviously with race and gender but I think a lot of huge political issues got examined more thoroughly by more individuals than usual since the quarantine, and I think this has benefited GC more than QT, to bring it back to your post lol

Edit- “somethings” to “some things”

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

People are peaking and people who’ve been peaked are speaking more openly. And even if it’s not a “peak” situation, people seem generally more comfortable and willing to say that some things seem unfair to women (and even men and kids) or don’t make sense. I don’t think it’s this drastic wave of backlash or anything that is going to scare qt, but I think it’s an interesting shift that could lead somewhere in a few years lol

Oh yes, I'm seeing and hearing GC talking points and criticism or questioning about QT assertions and transgenderism just in the general public for sure, even from extremely pro-trans people. This is silly, but to me this looks like the story of the tortoise (GC) and the hare (QT). You put it quite well, I'm inclined to agree with all of this.

I think it’s because we’ve all been focused on news and media so much, and trans issues and discussions are so prevalent. People didn’t have as many things to do and be distracted by, and we’ve been glued to social media more than ever, so even the people who weren’t paying attention to all the gender politics couldn’t help but end up somewhat informed, even if just about the super-sexuality memes (which would lead to finding out the reason for the super straight thing- and then you’re down a rabbit hole, if you get me)

I think this happened with a lot of important discussions, obviously with race and gender but I think a lot of huge political issues got examined more thoroughly by more individuals than usual since the quarantine, and I think this has benefited GC more than QT, to bring it back to your post lol

Inclined to agree with all of this, too! Thank you for sharing your thoughts and observations, some of my suspicions are a little more confirmed...

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Im very curious to see what’s going to come in the next year or two.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Time doesn't seem to be on the side of QT or gender ideology (at least these craze-like levels of it). It seems like people whose GD desisted and/or who detransitioned are going to maybe play a really big role shifting the conversation and peaking people, or at least really getting people to reevaluate their beliefs. People seem to really be getting more and more upset about what's happening to girls and women and LGB people for the sole benefit of transgenderism and trans people. I'm sort of anticipating a SuperStraights 2: Genetic Boogaloo, but you and others here who have been following things for a while seem to have your expectations tempered more than I would have thought--it's probably wiser to follow your lead.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

SuperStraights 2: Genetic Boogaloo

Amazing! 😂😂😂

I do think that eventually there will be a huge backlash for qt; I expect allies to turn and gc/Radfems and maybe even others who are just fed up will probably eventually start protesting and stuff like that but I think it’s a ways off

Tra narratives and ideology aren’t really sustainable and they seem to be pushing everyone’s buttons and boundaries

[–]kwallio 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Tra narratives and ideology aren’t really sustainable

Totally agree.

The TRAs have adopted an untenable position longterm - total agreement on all issues and terminology with no debate, ever, even as those issues and terms change on the daily. Absolutely no safeguarding or waiting required when children are involved, must validate the trans identity. Its completely bonkers and like you said, unsustainable.

[–]BiologyIsReal 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I don't know, but I think there is one thing where undoubtly the pandemic has helped the QT side with: delaying the Olympics. If not were for it, lots of people worldwide would have learned last year that when TRAs say TWAW they mean it literally.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Ahh that's a great point! I hadn't considered that at all. I kind of thought (well, hoped) that everyone would learn so much more during this time on account of circumstances fostering introspection and increased time online, but something like seeing the trans-inclusive Olympic/sports policies in action really would (or will) educate people in a way that makes it hard to dismiss the unevenness of women and transwomen physically competing against each other.

That's so interesting, thank you for sharing that!

[–]BiologyIsReal 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think many people dismiss what they see on the internet because, well, it's the internet. Users with extreme positions may be easily dismissed as trolls or sock accounts or just a vocal (but powerless) minority.

Sports is a really great way to peak people because: (a) the unfairness of males competing in the female categories is self-evident, (b) unlike other issues like prissons or children's "transitions", this issue is not as easy to hide because many people follow sports, (c) many of these athletes seem to love all the attention and are happy to appear in the Media. Also as the Olympics are viewed by people of all countries, it would have been (or will be) a big wake-up call for people from countries where either there aren't TRAs or they have no gained much political power yet.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

unlike other issues like prissons or children's "transitions", this issue is not as easy to hide because many people follow sports

That's.... depressingly probably true. Hopefully there could be some major revelations by people about what that might say about our priorities as social creatures.

many of these athletes seem to love all the attention and are happy to appear in the Media

If there really is some truth to the notion of an overabundance of narcissistic and sociopathic traits amongst transwomen as a whole, it will be very interesting seeing that combined with that celebrity attention en masse.

Also as the Olympics are viewed by people of all countries, it would have been (or will be) a big wake-up call for people from countries where either there aren't TRAs or they have no gained much political power yet.

That's a big cause for hope, I just saw they're commencing in about a week! I don't usually watch them, but I might have to a bit this time through that lens, it will be really interesting to see how that unfolds.

[–]BiologyIsReal 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's.... depressingly probably true. Hopefully there could be some major revelations by people about what that might say about our priorities as social creatures.

True, but is also difficult to follow other issues when a good bunch of the Media either don't report the problems or misrepresent the issues. Big tech companies like twitter or reddit get rid of any wrongthought they see and Google search results are biased.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Didn't notice the potentially sinister implications of the title question before, but now I'm sort of wondering if there were/are people holding any particular beliefs who were/are more or less likely to take the crisis seriously. I sort of see the extremes as being highly abstract or highly pragmatic, both for ideology and for the way the pandemic and virus have been viewed. Like, was any one side more particularly prudent or health-conscious for themselves or others?

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

I've come across both trans identified and gender critical people in anti-lockdown spaces. Though being against lockdown is not synonymous with "not taking the crisis seriously" or being "non prudent or health conscious." I see gender ideologues as similar to lockdown ideologues as they don't engage in argument, only scream about how I want people to die. Clichés function in the same way to shut down debate (transwomen are women, stay home save lives), as do slurs and the selective sharing of science.