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[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

This is such an amazing explanation! I guess, thinking of your last couple paragraphs especially, wouldn’t at least some trans people actually be well-adjusted in their identities because there wouldn’t be a big gap between a “real self” and reality? It seems like if someone saw themselves a transsexual woman/man rather than a biological one maybe they wouldn’t feel that there was a gap, or people who are generally regarded as the opposite sex might not feel like there is a big gap either. It doesn’t mean anyone owes anyone treating them any particular way, but I felt like when I read it at least some trans people would have stable and secure identities (assuming all trans people have gender identities, which I’m not so sure about!).

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

wouldn’t at least some trans people actually be well-adjusted in their identities because there wouldn’t be a big gap between a “real self” and reality?

I'm confused coz I was talking about a gap between the real self (who/how you really think you are) & the ideal self (who/how you wish you were or feel you should be). It's the old is/ought dilemma. (BTW, the real self is not necessarily the entirely realistic self, either. Most of us have some distortions in our self-images. Males, for example, tend to see themselves as better looking & smarter than they are, whereas women do the opposite.)

It seems like if someone saw themselves a transsexual woman/man rather than a biological one maybe they wouldn’t feel that there was a gap,

I imagine the people who are "trans" with the healthiest sense of self are those who accept & admit their sex & acknowledge that they had mental health problems that caused them, for one reason or another, to decide to alter their appearance & behavior in order to conform the sex stereotypes associated with the opposite sex. Which sounds like what you have done.

But still as I see it, being secure in one's "identity" is different to being secure in one's sense of self. I think all this "I identify as" stuff is basically BS, especially as it's being done by kids & adolescents far younger & less mature than you.

Also, for most people adopting a trans "identity" still requires engaging in artifice & performance on a daily basis, it often includes outright lying, it requires constant monitoring of one's appearance & behavior so as to try to manage other people's impressions, & of course it necessitates embracing & hewing to rigid, regressive, constricting sex stereotypes - none of which IMHO is a solid foundation on which to base one's sense of self.

Also, doesn't it get exhausting? And, not to pry, but aren't worried about what will happen as you age? Aging really changes people's appearance & body shapes in all sorts of usually unflattering ways that make most of unhappy. Maybe being on female CSH will make a difference, but in my view it's going to be a lot harder for someone like Blaire White or Jazz Jennings to keep up the charade when Blaire & Jazz are 40 or 50. My fear is that life will just mean more & more surgical interventions & cosmetic procedures in pursuit of the unattainable.

One of the issues here is the language. I think trans-identified people of both sex es would be better off giving up the pretense that they are some new breed of women & men & think of themselves as persons of their own sex who choose to "present" themselves according to the sex stereotypes that sexist people associate with the opposite sex. Seems to me trans people put themselves in an impossible situation when they started insisting they are "trans women" & "trans men." They would have been far better off coming up with entirely new words, rather than appropriating & attempting to change the meanings of woman, man, boy, girl, male & female. Or sticking with the old term transvestite.

or people who are generally regarded as the opposite sex might not feel like there is a big gap either. It doesn’t mean anyone owes anyone treating them any particular way

The problem here is that one's sense of self is bound to be fragile & constantly shaken if it is based mainly or largely on how other people regard you (or how you think/imagine other people regard you) and how other people treat you (or again, how you think they are treating you).

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Also, doesn't it get exhausting? And, not to pry, but aren't worried about what will happen as you age? Aging really changes people's appearance & body shapes in all sorts of usually unflattering ways that make most of unhappy.

What do you mean by exhausting? I don’t feel like being me is automatically exhausting so I’d have to understand how you mean it.

If I didn’t pass when I got older, I guess I’d figure out what that meant. I don’t think it would happen, but I guess you never really know. I’ve lived as an adult long enough to see myself age too. Not to like totally date myself, but I feel I have some idea of what 40 will be like from where I am now. As far as detransitioning or getting surgeries, it’s hard for me to imagine either of those things would happen. Assuming I wanted to detransition/retransition (which I don’t, but I don’t really feel like it’s an option), I’d still have to think about my family. I’m married and we’re going to have a child (adopted), none of these things (including getting a bunch of surgeries, which I honestly don’t want) are my decision to make alone and I just don’t know how they would fit into our lives. I like our lives now. Maybe my body could change in an unexpected way or my voice could drop an octave or something, but I really try to take care of myself and hopefully I’ll age alright. I’m just not sure how to answer that.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

What would their identity be though? Idk how to word it, but I guess I mean, even if a trans person does have a secure and stable sense of identity, it’s still not really identifying as or with females/being female or males/being male.

I’d think the “identity” would be “trans”, maybe specifically “transsexual” as opposed to “transgender”. If a trans person is identifying as a “woman” even a “transsexual woman” I think it’s still off base

Eta- I get why a TW would call themselves a woman, but to genuinely consider themselves on seems like it’s still kind of off. I can’t find the right word so I keep using off and I’ll come back with a better one when it comes to me, I’m sorry

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Idk how to word it, but I guess I mean, even if a trans person does have a secure and stable sense of identity, it’s still not really identifying as or with females/being female or males/being male.

Yeah, maybe there is still some dissonance, but I feel like it could be really small, not enough to threaten their identity, if someone existed in that role enough (so small they could even forget about it).

If a trans person is identifying as a “woman” even a “transsexual woman” I think it’s still off base

If the individual person had like internalized another definition that meant transsexual woman was just a type of woman, they might feel fine. It might not be true, but it wouldn’t matter for how they felt.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Dissonance was the perfect word thank you! Not having the right word was bothering me so much lol

I get what you’re saying. I guess I’m thinking more from a hyper GC mentality. I still find the idea of using “woman” as any type of identity offensive.

I guess my point is just that any identity that includes “woman” is still going to be wrong imo if the person claiming the identity is male. I just think even if someone calls it identifying as a woman or a transsexual woman, it’s still not accurate. They are still identifying with what they associate womanhood or “woman-ness” to be, rather than actual womanhood. So it’s not very different to me.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Gotcha! I guess I was thinking more about what would help the person’s identity be stable. Even wrong beliefs might help someone cope, but it’s still probably not the best and, in most cases, won’t work when it meets reality.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Yes, you've put your finger on the problem exactly. A person can have a stable "identity" based on false beliefs - such as that a transsexual male or a male of altered appearance & hormone profile is "a type of woman." But as you say, in most cases, it won't work when it meets reality. Since reality is all around us & tends to be hard to avoid, this means the supposedly stable "identity" really ends up not being very stable after all.

I imagine maintaining a personal "identity" based on an inherently false belief - "as a male who has done XYZ, I've now become a woman" or "any male who identifies as a woman is a woman" - must be very draining. Coz it would seem to require constantly having to filter out reality & defending oneself against basic facts. Like the dictionary definition of woman, the meaning of female, & the realities of girls & women's lives.

Seems to me that a principal reason many trans-identified people are able to hold so firmly to, & be so assertive of, their opposite-sex "identities" is because they suffer from narcissistic personality disorder or other cluster B disorders, or at the very least have strongly pronounced narcissistic traits.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

reality

You reminded me incels (they weren't calling like that back then) from CiS region decade ago. Among them around 10 years ago there was popular idea to "become crazy on purpose". Someone prominent in their movement went to budhist school and found there this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulpa

Idea was to imagine "perfect woman who loves you near you all the time and will never say no to anything", so they were taking drugs, different budhist meditations and techniques to become crazy and all the time see that woman nearby them, so now "they have girlfriend". I saw few men really going crazy from this and ended up permanently in psychiatric asylum.

Some men would go so far to fulfill their sexual desires, that consciously damage their brain and sanity.