All: Disclosure and Consent

submitted by loveSloaneDebate King from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 6 fun -  (10 children)

I think both sides should be able to use their vocabularies, provided it's not done antagonistically. If someone can't handle "front hole" or "trans-identified male" or even "TERF" in the general then why debate? We just shouldn't be able use these words against another user specifically. But this is the lexicon of gender identity and people passing through here should see both sides presented in their truest forms.

[–]worried19 8 insightful - 5 fun8 insightful - 4 fun9 insightful - 5 fun -  (9 children)

I agree. "Front hole" is a commonly accepted trans term. It's not comparable to using a slur against trans people's anatomy.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (8 children)

Yes. How how about words or phrases that only exist to be derogatory are banned? I take back allowing "TERF" because then it would follow to allow any slur, and I do appreciate this sub being moderated to keep things civil and functional. But "front hole" doesn't exist to insult, however much it does insult many of us. That distinction gets to the heart of what we're here to debate.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

But "front hole" doesn't exist to insult

I actually would disagree. In all of its possible and previous usages (men describing women as commodity, gay men mocking women, etc) it was used as derogatory phrase. And I don't believe that it was "re-claimed" at any point - I haven't even heard anyone speaking about it at all.

Even for transmen it is used mostly in derogatory way. For transwomen it is used "girldick" or "woman's penis", not "front pillar". Yet, for transmen it is not "man vulva" or "man vagina", but something else - something that previously was used as way to dehumanize women. And even cosmetic penis for transmen is often called "phallus" and not "penis", unlike when it is said about transwomen and their cosmetic vulva.

[–]worried19 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Some trans men use it to refer to their own vaginas during sex and also in general. It's not derogatory when used in that manner.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yeah, but why only them, while for transwomen it is fine to use "girl dick"? Why transmen are pushed to not use "man's vagina", while transwomen are pushing for everyone to use "women's penis"?

[–]worried19 7 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

I don't know. I think some trans women use "clit" for their penis and not "girl dick." I'm not sure if there's actually an accepted term.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I haven't said they are calling it "girl dick", I said it is transwomen who are doing it and are fine with naming their penis as penis and in general using male-specific words to describe themselves and just adding "women's X" to them, while transmen are pushed away from using female-specific words for themselves. Thought, rarely I still see "man's vagina" - but mostly it is using ones who are harassing gay men to sleep with them.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (2 children)

What was the previous use of "front hole"? I'm only familiar with it in the context of gender identity.

Even for transmen it is used mostly in derogatory way.

Can you provide an example? People are singling out transmen and mocking them with the phrase "front hole"? I only see it presented as an "inclusive" way to refer to vaginas.

But whatever the case, the kind of exchange we're having right now is useful. If "front hole" is banned then we don't get to critique or try to understand it further. Healthline writes:

Whenever we use the medical term “vagina,” we’ll also include “front hole,” as clinically recommended by researchers in the BMC Pregnancy and Childbirth journal.

Isn't this the kind of thing we should be able to discuss? The phrase is all over the internet, but we're too fragile to touch it in a debate sub?

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I am not advocating on banning it, just explaining why it is in most cases used as something bad.

I already explained why it is not "inclusive" - because for transwomen they are going with male anatomy and just saying "women's penis" or "women's prostate", and attacking women's organizations who are focusing on female anatomy. While for transmen - they are discouraged to focus on female anatomy and call it "men's vagina" or "men's clitoris" and instead using terms like "front hole" instead.

That site is calling "sex with penis" as lesbian sex, and half of "tips for lesbian sex" are tips for heterosexual sex, there basically only 3-4 tips will help lesbians at all: https://www.healthline.com/health/healthy-sex/how-do-lesbians-have-sex#sex-varies

So I would not listen to that site much.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

I think we agree on everything then. For the record, I hate few phrases as much as "front hole"; my vagina is not a "hole," but the opening to my uterus.