Both: In light of recent events. In what context is Voyeurism and Indecent Exposure acceptable? Is there a rational justification for making an exception for males who claim to be women?

submitted by Penultimate_Penance from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (13 children)

I feel like if you consent to being nude around a bunch of strangers, then it shouldn't matter who that stranger is, what their birth sex is. If you're going to a naked locker room, spa, you're consenting for anyone to view you naked. If you're uncomfortable with it, don't go to places where you have to be naked.

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

If you're going to a naked locker room, spa, you're consenting for anyone to view you naked.

This is not true. Women & girls who go into a locker room, spa or other space designated women's or ladies are consenting only for other females to see them naked.

Similarly, boys & men who use facilities designated male spaces - such as gyms, locker rooms, saunas, bath houses, sex clubs, cottaging public loos & so on - are not consenting to be seen naked by members of the female sex.

Your position seems to be that girls & women, & boys & men, have no right to be naked only amongst members of their own sex. Is that really your view?

[–]womanual 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Girls and women should be entitled to private spaces, but not boys and men. Men do not need the physical protection.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (9 children)

When you are naked in front of random strangers, their sex doesn't matter anymore.

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sex absolutely matters especially when people are naked. You have a lived a very lucky life if you haven't learned that already the hard way.

[–]Juniperius 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

What if they're not random strangers? What if they're strangers who have been carefully filtered? What if sex is the filter?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (5 children)

Unless you know them personally, they are complete strangers.

[–]Juniperius 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

"random" is not the same as "complete." You were talking about random strangers, so I asked about strangers from whom the randomness had been removed. Like, if I go to a conference on a particular subject, I may not know anyone there, but the group of people will be non-random, as they will have self-selected to be a group of people who are interested in that topic. Selection, filtering, these are ways of organizing, they are the opposite of randomness.

Do you think if I go out to a group that is advertised as being only for, I don't know, Dr Who fans, that I am consenting to be around people who hate Dr Who, because the other people are strangers to me?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (3 children)

Yes I meant complete strangers. Don't want people to view your naked body, don't go to a naked spa.

[–]MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Don't want people to view your naked body, don't go to a naked spa.

This wasn't "a naked spa." It was spa where nakedness was allowed & the norm amongst the female people in the female-only section & amongst the male people in the entirely separate male-only section. In the mixed sex area, clothing was required.

[–]BiologyIsReal 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Way to completely misrepresent what actually happen. The spa clients didn't went to a spa where everybody is naked. Instead, the nudity takes place in sex-seggregated spaces. You know, sex, like in biological sex, there are two kinds of people, one is able to get pregnant and the other can impregnate the former. The women and girls there expected to find only female people (the kind that can get pregnat, not "gender identity") and, instead, they found a nude man (the kind that can imprenant, not "gender identity") with his intact penis and balls among them. That is not what these women and girls consented to (and whether you think this is a reasonable boundary to have is absolutely irrelevant; you're not those women and girls and you can't consent for them). This nude man (the kind that can impregnate) with his intact penis and balls could have gone to the mixed section of the spa, but that probably wouldn't have been as "validating" or sexually arousing for him. So, he went to the female section without any care for how the women and girls would feel. And this pervert is being treated as the "victim" here because some stupid policies that say that if a man (you know the kind that can impregnate, not "gender identity") say he is a "woman", then he is a "woman" and must be treated as such. And here you are twisting the situation by saying those women and girls consented to be naked around a naked man (the impregnator kind, you know), which is false. Honestly, if you think that women (the ones that can get pregnant) don't have a right to say "no" to men (the kind that can impregnate), you could be upfront about it, instead of playing dumb.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Why always blaming the victim? Why do you have compassion to the offender and not to the victims?

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Why would it not matter? I think I understand what you're saying about strangers in general, but I don't understand why their sex wouldn't matter if one is naked in a space that is explicitly female or male only.

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If you go into a single sex space you are only consenting to be viewed naked by members of your sex. Your personal opinions on nudity are irrelevant to this discussion. This is about consent. A male walking into a female only single sex space is violating every single women's consent the moment he enters the space.

This is a non issue in unisex spaces, but we're not talking about unisex spaces right now.