Both: In light of recent events. In what context is Voyeurism and Indecent Exposure acceptable? Is there a rational justification for making an exception for males who claim to be women?

submitted by Penultimate_Penance from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (33 children)

Right there. You are talking about people you seem to have had cordial relationships with and you misgender them, call them religious, and all but say you only referred to them as who they are to their face because of pity.

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (32 children)

Not pity, but politeness. I think Christianity is bullshit. Playing along to some of their social mores when I am in Christian company isn't pity it's a social nicety. I don't swear around people who don't like swear words either. Many smokers respect nonsmokers by not smoking around them or asking if they mind first, not out of pity just basic human empathy and politeness and as a nonsmoker who really hates smoke I really appreciate the courtesy.

I believe that transgenderism is bullshit too. I'm an empiricist, I don't believe in gods, gender souls, or regular run of the mill religious souls. I don't hate trans people, I don't pity them, I just disagree with them. I don't believe using the Lord's name in vain is wrong, but many Christians do. I don't believe misgendering is wrong, but many trans people do. So out of social nicety I change my behavior depending on who I am with. It would be a dick move for me to walk into a church and yell "God doesn't exist!". I wouldn't walk into a transwomen social gathering and shout "transwomen are men". That would just be rude, both groups have a right to believe what they believe and form social groups where they embrace that.

You don't have a right to force nonbelievers to adhere to every tenet of your personal belief system especially when you aren't present. It would be batty to demand that all atheists/unbelievers in the country never use the Lord's name in vain ever, because that hurts Christian's feelings. It is equally batty to demand that every gender atheist in the country never misgender any transgender person ever. What the trans movement is essentially advocating for is forced belief/forced religion and that is not okay. It is extraordinarily entitled. I also have the right to believe what I believe and hang out with people who have similar beliefs just like transgender people and I don't believe men can be women and vice versa. Christians have failed to convince me that their religion is the one true way. Transgender ideologues have failed to convince me that men can be women magically somehow. Thems the rocks.

Freedom of religion includes freedom from religion. Freedom of belief includes freedom from belief. It's not personal, we just have very different belief systems. There will always be unbelievers, you will have to find a way to cope with that. Christians(Insert any other powerful religion here) have to be forced every now and again to stop forcing their subjective faith based beliefs on the rest of society, trans people will have to learn that the hard way too it seems.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (31 children)

Being trans isn’t a religion. Dysphoria is like any other medical condition. Transition treats it. Being called a man is a deeply insulting term to me. In fact there are maybe 2 or 3 things in all the possible insults that would bother me more. But it isn’t a religious question. At most it’s a semantic one.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 3 fun -  (20 children)

If transition treats it, shouldn’t being called a man not be upsetting to you?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (19 children)

I said treat not cure.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

…Sure, fair enough

But if you think it’s that deep of an insult, if it upsets you to the core, it just doesn’t seem like you’ve done anything (or enough, to be fair) to work through why you associate “man/men” with what you associate it with. You feel more comfortable in your body and less suicidal/depressed, but you still clearly have deep seated issues somewhere related to sex/gender, just based on your perception of men and women and what types of people each are.

So… does that just not ever get dealt with?

Because any effective- even just competent- treatment (not cure) surely would include unpacking that.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (17 children)

I’ve analyzed it. I’m right. Men are monsters partially socially partially because of testosterone. In a few generations if we stopped teaching men to be animals we might be able to get them to control the awful testosterone driven violence that they are filled with but this generation is already lost. You can’t be safe around these men.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

👀

Well alrighty then

Still- if you’re being treated effectively, being called a man shouldn’t have a huge effect on you. Doesn’t matter what the word means, it’s about the fact that it bothers you so deeply, it’s not about the trigger- it’s about being triggered. Obviously nothing was done to help you cope with that, and that seems like it’s pretty necessary

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (15 children)

It’s natural to be upset when someone purposefully insults you.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

“Man” is not an insult. You’ve made it out to be one in your head.

Which is exactly my point about being “treated” effectively

You have a tendency to answer our questions for us on accident lol

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

It is a faith based belief question, especially since trans activists are demanding that biological men be treated as though they were women. It is impossible for a male person to know what it feels like to be a female person unless someone believes in something similar to a soul separate from the body (innate gender identity). A belief in something innate separate from the body has 1,000s of years of religious history. The only difference between a transwoman and any other man from a nonbeliever's perspective is that one man claims to be a woman and one does not. Physically they are indistinguishable. A man who has 'transitioned' is just a man who got some body modifications. There are men who have transitioned who believe they are still men. Is there an objective way to verify which male bodied people are actually women on the inside and which ones are not other than just taking their word for it?

I respect that it is a deeply felt personal belief hence my willingness to engage in some social niceties while engaging with trans identified individuals in real life, but I'm not willing to do more than that. My rights, my beliefs, my boundaries and my consent matters too.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (7 children)

It is a faith based belief question, especially since trans activists are demanding that biological men be treated as though they were women.

No it isn’t. It’s semantic or taxonomic. It has nothing to do with faith. The “trans is religion” thing is a full on gaslighting campaign and nothing less.

Challenge the assertions if you wish but calling it a religion is simply disingenuous.

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

If a woman is not an adult human female, then what is a woman? If you're a woman then what am I? I don't have an internal sense of gender, so does that mean I'm not a woman?

Is there an objective way to prove that some male bodied people are actually women on the inside? Is there an objective independently verifiable way to measure gender identity? If not, it is a subjective faith based belief and should be treated as such.

I think the comparison to religion is quite apt, many trans activist arguments & claims are so similar to religious arguments & claims that they may as well be twins. Really I'm getting deja vu from my freshly minted apostate days.

Pseudoreligion: Belief or philosophy with certain aspects of religion (a founder, a principal text, faith-based beliefs, etc.).

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (5 children)

If you're a woman then what am I?

That’s up to you. You seem to consider yourself a woman so that would be my guess.

Is there an objective way to prove that some male bodied people are actually women on the inside

No but subjective doesn’t mean faith based. Depression isn’t religious but the symptoms are purely subjective. Or fibromyalgia.

There’s nothing faith based. I don’t have a “woman’s soul”. The natural body I grew disgusted me and made me distressed to the point of impairing function so i fixed it. I’m more comfortable being called a woman and distressed by being called a man so that’s what I facilitate. There’s no religion involved.

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

So for you would you describe it as a personal fiction that helps you get by? Are people who claim trans status, but do not have gender dysphoria actually trans? What you're describing sounds like transmedicalism which makes a lot more sense than woman gender. There is definitely a difference between preferring to be called a woman and claiming to be a woman. Preferring to be called a woman I would not consider faith based, but claiming to actually be a woman despite having a male body is quite a reach that goes right into faith territory.

I'm a woman because I have a female body not because I consider myself one. Identifying as something and actually being that thing is very different. Many transwomen claim that they have a woman gender and are claiming that they are actually women, which is where the conflicts arise like the Wi Spa incident, because women (female bodied people) have very different needs than male bodied people, which is why the law needs to be based on sex not gender identity.

There are objective external aspects of both of those illnesses that can be observed, tested for and measured. Objective criteria can also be defined for gender dysphoria making it diagnosable. Innate gender identity is a different beast though. It's too similar to the belief in a soul for my taste. Having gender dysphoria does not make a male bodied person a woman, but it is understandable given the nature of the condition that is what they would preferred to be seen as.

Major depression: an illness with objective physical signs Fibromyalgia: Understand how it's diagnosed

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (2 children)

I’m a transmedicalist if that wasn’t clear.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

So for you would you describe it as a personal fiction that helps you get by?

What’s your answer to this? Just curious.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Depression isn’t religious but the symptoms are purely subjective

This is not true. There are many objective, physical symptoms of depression that are observable by others & measurable by scientific standards.

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 7 fun4 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

Dysphoria is like any other medical condition.

Being convinced that a perfectly normal body is "wrong" based on literally nothing isn't "just like any other medical condition". The idea of "gender" as some kind of a soul compelling you to get plastic surgeries and amputations as well as hormones not meant for your body, and demanding that this be treated as factual to the point of science having to adapt to it despite contrary evidence and women's human rights having to be sacrificed for it is similar to a religion. It also relies on (in many ways similarly religious) patriarchal ideas that are objectively damaging to society.

Transition treats it.

Clearly not, since it still requires everyone around them to lie that the trans person is something they're not, or else the trans person gets a mental breakdown. Transition might make it easier to fool people into believing a lie, but successfully making someone or even most people believe a lie doesn't make it true (again, similar to religion), hence why trans people are in constant fear of the truth coming out. Ultimately they themselves don't seem to believe in what they preach because reality simply doesn't allow for magical sex transformations, and that's a hard pill to swallow when you have a mental illness telling you you should be something that you biologically simply can't. And the fact that you can't isn't the fault of feminists, or the medical community, or society not wanting to use one's preferred pronouns. No-one is to blame for reality being the way it is.

Being called a man is a deeply insulting term to me.

So is calling God's name in vain for many Christians. Things being insulting to someone does not make them wrong solely on that one basis, otherwise we'd still be arguing over whether the Earth is spherical or whether evolution exists.

it isn’t a religious question. At most it’s a semantic one.

Some Christians have tried to make evolution seem like it's all about semantics. At some point, though, no amount of mental gymnastics can turn reality into something that goes contrary to observation. If it is your religious belief that a man is a woman because he says so, I will reject that and go with the biological reality that has been understood and scientifically studied for a very long time.