GC: Scientists say sex is a spectrum, even an illusory man-made social construct

submitted by Fastandthecurious from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]kwallio 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

I didn't read the post or the links but in some bee species males are haploid, so you could in theory make a bee from two haploid sperm, it would just be a useless drone though.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

I don’t doubt bees breed like that. It’s still pants on head stupidity to claim that bees doing this means a placental mammal doesn’t have differences between ova and sperm and are ackshually totally not male or female.

[–]kwallio 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Yes, true, trying to argue that there is no difference between male and female based on half baked ideas about bee biology is kind of idiotic.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I love bees but it’a beyond a joke. This is easily the fortieth time someone has asked us all to prove that humans are sexed if any other life form has ever procreated differently to the mammal sex binary. I’m about ready to just start asking them if they are using protection so they don t get pregnant from tree pollen or a dog humping their shoe.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

This is easily the fortieth time someone has asked us all to prove that humans are sexed if any other life form has ever procreated differently to the mammal sex binary.

My favourite was when the poster used mushrooms to make the same point.

That' s why when humans walk, we need to wear wicker baskets instead of underwear, so that we can spread our spores!

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

Lmao I’d better be careful when I go out collecting oyster and saffron milk cap mushies then! I’d hate to ovulate sperm and accidentally impregnate a mycelium.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Good for you, it would cost you a fortune in child support.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Ha! They’ll never see a cent! They can’t prove those are my spores!!

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

You' re right, after all DNA is a social construct, it can' t be used for stuff like this.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

DNA: gross fake acid that tells lies about me

My identity:pure unadulterated truth untouched by bias

[–]kwallio 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I, personally, would like some protection against pollen since I have some terrible allergies.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

same tbh. Dreadful time being Australian and allergic to wattle.

[–]Fastandthecurious[S] 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (7 children)

Breed like what? They said "in theory". Just because there was one example of a bee from two "male" bees doesn't mean "bees breed like that". In bees, it's always the "female queen" that breeds. Not two "males". And they don't actually know the bee was from two "males". They assumed.

I'm just saying if it's the case that two "males" can make a zygote, though very rare, then it means there is no such thing as "male" or "female" in bees, therefore no such thing as "egg" or "sperm" in bees, and therefore no such thing as "male" or "female", "egg" or "sperm" universally.

[–]MarkTwainiac 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But the scientist whose single unverified paper you are so impressed with actually made clear distinctions between male & female in her paper, going so far as to claim that the ONE single solitary "strange" bee she says was produced this way had a "male eye in a female body."

I think you've taken the bait thrown out by a university PR department, not come across proof that humans have no sex & there is no difference between ova & sperm or male & female as you allege.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Waaaaaaait…

So they don’t even know if the two dude bees made a baby bee for sure?

And yet you’re running with this as if its this groundbreaking discovery that changes how we should understand sex?

And you genuinely don’t think it matters that bees and humans are drastically different from each other?

[–]Fastandthecurious[S] 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

And yet you’re running with this as if its this groundbreaking discovery that changes how we should understand sex?

The trans right activists use it as if it should change how people understand sex. I was curious what they spam in their tumblr posts.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Nah this is your post and your argument that you’ve made several times in the comments.

You linked the bee thing and it’s what you seem to be basing a lot of your post on so idk why you’re putting this on tras now

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

There is still a difference between sperm and ova when some bees can breed via haploidisation.

I’m a beekeeper, I know how they work. How bees work has absolutely nothing to do with how humans do.

Sperm does not need to be the same amongst all living creatures for human spent to be vastly different to a human ova.

You may as well say roller coasters are roads because they both have vehicles move on them.

[–]Fastandthecurious[S] 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

Roller coasters and roads aren't a good analogy.

"Sperm" and "egg", "male" and "female" are a thing because they are the only ones that can create a zygote. If it were the case that two "sperm" or two "eggs" can create a zygote too, then the so-called "differences" between an "egg" and "sperm" would be arbitrary and could easily exist between two "sperm" or two "eggs" because they can do the exact same thing as "sperm" and "egg" do.

Therefore there would be no "male" or "female" either, as the "differences" between them could easily exist between two "females" or two "males".

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Lmao no. Sweetie just stop.

You are making a dogs breakfast of this and you just keep stirring it.

Show me the third gamete humans have right now. If your word salad of “sperm and eggs aren’t different because bees maybe used haploidisation” is anything but a pile of garbage you will be able to find the third gamete and a handful of pregnant natal men to prove it. There should be loads of women actively dropping spent from their ovaries right now so where are they? Should I start taking the pill so I don’t impregnate myself by accident? Or impregnate my partner since his sperm are identical to ova? Go fetch these people and while your at it, grab me the medical advice on preventing impregnating myself that absolutely must exist in a world where humans sperm and human ova are the same thing

[–]Fastandthecurious[S] 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (9 children)

And that means there is no "male" or "female" in those bee species in which "males" are haploid because two "sperm" can do the exact same thing a "sperm" and "egg" do, and that means there is no difference between a "sperm" and "egg" ...

??

[–]kwallio 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

You are drawing inferences where no inferences should be made. The fact that some bees have haploid males doesn't mean anything except there are some bee species that have haploid male bees. That you can manipulate two sperm in a lab to do something doesn't mean anything except that - not that there is no difference between a sperm and an egg because there are very real differences between sperm and egg. Focusing on one tiny fact while ignoring 20 facts that run counter to your argument is not a way to get anyone's respect especially when you are arguing about science when you clearly have zero background in it.

[–]Fastandthecurious[S] 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (7 children)

"Sperm" and "egg" are categories we give two cells because they are the only ones that can create a zygote. If it were the case that two "sperm" or two "eggs" can create a zygote too, then the "differences" between a "sperm" and "egg" would be arbitrary and could exist between two "sperm" or two "eggs", because two "sperm" or two "egg" could do the exact same thing a "sperm" and "egg" do.

And that would also mean there is no "male" or "female" if it was discovered two "sperm" or two "eggs" could create a zygote.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

If it were the case that two "sperm" or two "eggs" can create a zygote too, then the "differences" between a "sperm" and "egg" would be arbitrary and could exist between two "sperm" or two "eggs", because two "sperm" or two "egg" could do the exact same thing a "sperm" and "egg" do.

Logic fail. There are often myriad ways to achieve the same end, but that doesn't mean the different methods in each case suddenly become the same. If I want to go to X place, I can drive myself in a car or truck, take a train, bus or plane, hire a car & driver, hitchhike, ride a motorcycle or horse, or take a horse-drawn carriage or cart. If I have the time, I also could ride a bike, unicycle, scooter, wheelchair, tractor or golf cart there; take a hot air balloon; or run, jog, walk, rollerblade, skip, hop &/or pogo-stick my way there. If the place I am going is on the seacoast or a river & my place of departure is adjacent to the same body of water, I could swim, sail take a motor boat, water taxi, jet ski or paddle board there. I could also parasail.

The fact that I'd land in the same destination at the end doesn't mean that the differences between all these varied modes of transport become "arbitrary" and are elided. It also would would NOT mean there is no travel by land, air or water by a range of diverse means - & that instead, it's all just simply travel.

Some organisms have evolved to use both asexual and sexual means of reproduction. For example aphids, slime molds, sea anemones, and some starfish are capable of both asexual and sexual reproduction. This doesn't mean that there is no difference between the sperm & eggs of those species. And none of what these other animal species do has anything to do with humans & other mammals.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Post-modernism (and post-modernistic denial of reality) is the bane of western society.

[–]Fastandthecurious[S] 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

No, I'm not saying the different methods become the same. I'm saying sperm and egg are different because they are the only ones that can fuse and create a zygote. If it were the case that two sperm or two eggs could fuse and create a zygote too, then it would mean the differences between an egg and a sperm are arbitrary and could as easily occur between two sperm or two eggs.

Comparing sperm and egg, to man-made things like roads, and motorcycles isn't a good comparison. Whatever differences exist between motorcycles, cars, roads, etc are man-made and could as easily exist between two roads, two motorcycles, two cars, or whatever.

[–]kwallio 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

I don't know what else to say except look up what a sperm is and look up what an egg is and then say the differences are arbitrary.

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I posted a link to a video showing human sperm approaching & trying to pierce a human egg, & OP ignored it.

[–]kwallio 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

And in a previous discussion I provided links to pdf textbook on human anatomy and physiology and they ignored that, too.

[–]Fastandthecurious[S] 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

Not saying there are no differences between sperm and egg ... all I'm saying is the differences exist because only sperm and egg can fuse and create a zygote. If it were the case that two sperm or two eggs could fuse and create a zygote too, then it would mean the differences between sperm and egg are arbitrary and could as easily occur between two eggs or two sperm.