Both: What would a healthy non homophobic trans community look like?

submitted by Penultimate_Penance from self.GCdebatesQT

A healthy trans community and movement that respects homosexual people would not:

  • Cajole, coerce or shame gay men or lesbian women into dating people of the opposite sex. (Genital preferences, cotton/boxer ceiling rhetoric)
  • Would allow homosexual people to form their own events, groups and online communities without harassment, threats or banning them. (This includes events like Michfest, Lesbian bars and reddit subs like TrueLesbians)
  • Would not pressure gender nonconforming people especially youth into transitioning. Many gender nonconforming people are homosexual or bisexual not trans.
  • Would respect homosexual people's right to define themselves and choose who is and who is not a part of their community. Many if not most homosexual and bisexual people define it as same sex attraction, not same gender attraction. That is why many homosexuals & bisexuals are pushing back with groups and movements like LGB drop the T, get the L out and the LGB alliance.

As long as trans people respect homosexual people's identities beliefs and boundaries both groups can peacefully coexist and potentially support each other. The way it is now the trans movement is actively hurting LGB people particularly lesbians and gay people. It needs to stop.

This isn't progress. Homophobia under the pretense of wokeness and inclusion is still homophobia.

LGB standing up for themselves is not hate. LGB Sea Shanty

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[–]worried19 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think it would a lot healthier for the community to acknowledge that being trans is nothing to celebrate. At its root, sex and genital dysphoria is a malady. It causes harm to individuals. People should not wish for others to suffer dysphoria nor should they resent or try to stop reasonable attempts to eliminate dysphoria. Why would they want others to suffer if they don't have to, especially children? You can celebrate people in the trans community overcoming obstacles and surviving, living their best lives in spite of dysphoria, but that's quite different from celebrating dysphoria itself. No one should wish for other people to become trans. It's condemning those people to a lifetime of potentially severe mental distress and medical complications.

I also believe that the trans community needs to reckon with the fact that literal sex changes are not possible. In their desperate attempt to deny the reality of sex, things in the trans community have gotten more and more extreme. This not only harms other groups, like women, children, and homosexuals, but harms trans people themselves. Chasing something that is impossible is not good for mental health. Biological sex is fixed. Trans people will always be members of their birth sex, and if they would just come to terms with that, I think it would do wonders for them overall. They can be transsexual, but they should not deny that there are biological differences between them and their target sex. I think if the movement embraced this reality, they would not be so aggressive and hell bent on trying to force "equality" that is not really equality on the population at large.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Totally agree with everything you said! You are very insightful.

I don't understand why many trans people seem to want other to be trans or be happy when other people are trans. I just can't relate to that at all. I have a good life (that I had to work really hard for), but being this way isn't something anyone should want for themselves or anyone else.

The literal sex change thing is weird too. I feel like that is newer because years ago people would use biological, or bio, or born (no cis until later) or other words to differentiate between us and people who were actually that sex. I felt like most people understood what they were. There were like books by Kate Bornstein or Riki Wilchins that tried to say that sex wasn't really real, but those ideas weren't mainstream like they are now.

[–]worried19 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks, yeah, it seems like past trans people acknowledged biological reality. I wasn't in tune with these issues prior to about 5 years ago, but from what I've seen, they weren't so angry. They were accepting, they had a sense of humor about their situation. Now it just seems like TRAs make people feel permanently victimized and offended and entitled, whereas earlier generations knew they were outliers and just wanted to be treated with decency and respect. I'm sure that's simplifying things a bit. I have read that there were problematic elements in the trans community going back to the 70s. But it surely wasn't as common as now.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I feel like in the trans community there is a lot of blaming unhappiness on externals things whether is like “transphobia.” The trans people who are happiest and most well adjusted don’t really stay around because why would you, it’s just depressing at the very least (many more reasons too). I think it leaves the most unhappy, militant ones in the community who really define their whole lives around being trans and it just stays toxic because they want to blame others for why they aren’t in a better place and everyone agrees with each other about that.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Nailed it perfectly imo

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That makes sense. Relying on external validation instead of internal validation is a recipe for misery. It seems to also breed entitlement when external validation is made out to be a human right rather than something that's nice to have.

[–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I've seen that exact dynamic in other, much smaller social groups, specifically around depression and paranoia (not equating those with trans). Usually what happens is something like this: one or two core group members with strong personalities are also depressed or generally anxious/paranoid and not engaged in any kind of treatment, and they set and maintain the tone of the group. Members who don't comply with the emotional tone usually end up leaving.

[–]FlanJam 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I wonder if QT's rhetoric has backfired on them. They really push the idea that trans people are the most oppressed class to ever exist, like they're the undefeated champions of the oppression olympics. Of course trans people don't have it easy, but QT exaggerates it to a cartoonish degree. And when they repeat this rhetoric over and over again, maybe they've taken it to heart and really believe the entire world hates them and is out to get them. They've put themselves into a really unhealthy state of mind, so its not hard to see how they can radicalize into gender ideology and become militant.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not to be rude but I genuinely question whether the trans community can be “healthy” at all

But I’d say the best thing is live and let live. Literally just leave people alone lol, respect female rights and spaces, stop forcing ideology or forcing us to deny basic science.

I agree with everything you said, I’m just saying I think the healthiest thing is honestly just for the trans community to accept that they are truly their own community entirely and they aren’t owed anything by the rest of society- they aren’t owed access to anyone, anything, or any community just because they want that access (obviously there are some instances when someone can be a part of the trans community and another “community” simultaneously- eta, also obviously they deserve the same basic human rights -emphasis on human rights, not wants- as anyone else)

I also don’t know that the trans community will ever not be homophobic- since it seems like there’s just a lot of internalized homophobia and sometimes heterosexual trans people fetishizing homosexuality, so…

Ultimately I don’t think it’s the homophobia that’s the issue (tho it’s obviously not great…) it’s the sense of entitlement.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

There is no healthy lack of homophobia in a group that contains HSTS or the rape culture supported by tra.

Transgender ideas are inherently homophobic in a number of ways.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

There is no healthy lack of homophobia in a group that contains HSTS

I’m not saying this isn’t problem, but is it fair to say we automatically like that? I always felt like the straight ones were the homophobes.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don’t think all hsts people are homophobic and I should have phrased better. I do believe an unknowable number of hsts men are both victims of and believers in homophobia. Latter caused by former.

The agp crowd are more openly homophobic without appearing to have been on the receiving end of it.

[–]pollyesther 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't think the trans community is healthy. Really, believing you are something you are not is a mental illness. Anyway, to answer the question, don't redefine sexuality. A man attracted to women, including trans men, is either straight or bisexual. Don't force us to pretend it's a gay relationship, because she will never be a man regardless how much she pumps herself with hormones and surgeries. A man attracted to another man, even if he thinks he thinks he's a woman, is either gay or bisexual. Don't force us to pretend it's a straight relationship. Sexuality is defined by what sex people are attracted to, not gender identity. Otherwise it would be called genderality.