all 40 comments

[–]Penultimate_Penance 17 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I am very worried about the consequences for teenage girls. Boys are watching violent porn from and attacking teenage girls at disturbingly young ages. Single sex spaces are a refuge when teenage girls really start getting the full brunt of male sexual terrorism and violence, now there is no refuge for them. I wonder how many of them must be harassed, assaulted and raped before the democrat party wakes the hell up. The scholarships and opportunities lost by young female athletes will also be a tragedy.

[–]worried19[S] 15 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 2 fun -  (23 children)

I just feel disheartened. It's like one step forward, two steps back, especially in the USA. I don't understand how this squares with freedom of religion, since there are religions where girls are not allowed to touch males or undress in front of males. I don't understand how politicians can throw high school girls under the bus and remove all chances of them winning competitions because they were not born male. There is no way they can compete against natal males with unaltered bodies who have gone through male puberty. Does Joe Biden care? Do the Democrats care? Of course not. They smear these girls as haters and bigots. It's depressing.

[–]SnowAssMan 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

What's the difference between being male & being "born male"? What's the difference between male & "natal male"?

[–]worried19[S] 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

No difference, it's just that I've gotten used to using "natal male" on this sub. Also, I don't support child transition, so while I'm happy to call adults "trans women," I don't feel the same about "trans girls."

[–]SnowAssMan 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think those terms proliferate the idea that sex is mutable. I think this is a harmful idea for both sides. For instance, if someone is considering medical transition they shouldn't be under the impression that the changes they undergo will be tantamount to a change in sex, otherwise they're bound to be disappointed with the results, to some degree at least.

[–]worried19[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's out of date now, but "transsexual" makes more sense to me than other terms, along with referring to "biological sex" or "birth sex" for clarification purposes. Trans people are not helped by those claiming that a literal transformation of sex is taking place.

[–]FlanJam 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

I don't know much about law but would this extend to sport? I just briefly looked thru the page, and it says protection of gender identity falls under protection of sex. I'm thinking sports is one place where sex discrimination is allowed. Girls teams are allowed to say boys aren't allowed in their sport on the basis of sex. So if protection of gender identity falls under protection of sex, wouldn't girls teams be allowed to turn down transwomen as well?

[–]worried19[S] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

[–]FlanJam 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thanks for the link. I didn't even realize dorms and showers were opened to self-id. Really hope there hasn't been any incidents.

[–]worried19[S] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well, if there are, the mainstream media will make sure we never hear about them.

[–]worried19[S] 13 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Yes, it extends to sports. Biden has been championing allowing natal males into girls' sports at all levels, including high school and college, regardless of whether they have made any medical changes to their bodies.

Some relevant links:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jan/22/transgender-athletes-joe-biden-executive-order

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/biden-administration-withdraws-transgender-athlete-case-n1258723

[–]FlanJam 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Ahh, I see. Well, if I'm being optimistic maybe this will the the final straw for people. I mean, people have to realize there's something wrong when they see a completely untransitioned male person competing in sports with women. You gotta be insane to think otherwise.

[–]worried19[S] 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

You would think, but the mainstream media is trying their hardest to gaslight people into believing it's no big deal.

[–]PhilosopherTentaclesis presently on sabbatical -- leave all messages with the Dean. 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think this is shaping up for a guaranteed legal challenge via the First Amendment's religious clauses ("Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . .) and a strong and continuing pushback at the state level. Since the feds seem to be opting for forcing the issue rather than dialog and mediation, there will be resistance. They could have done better.

[–]worried19[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I hold out hope for the Supreme Court.

It's not just the conservatives on the court. The justices are very strong on freedom of religion, both right and left. Unanimous decision just yesterday upholding religious rights over LGBT rights:

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/17/supreme-court-sides-with-catholic-adoption-agency-that-refuses-to-work-with-lgbt-couples.html

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 12 fun2 insightful - 11 fun3 insightful - 12 fun -  (1 child)

I guess the bigots don’t get to compete then

[–]worried19[S] 12 insightful - 5 fun12 insightful - 4 fun13 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

No comment.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 11 fun2 insightful - 10 fun3 insightful - 11 fun -  (7 children)

Not true. Due to the numbers involves cis women usually beat trans women.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 14 insightful - 5 fun14 insightful - 4 fun15 insightful - 5 fun -  (6 children)

Poor innocent souls, they should have their space away from those horrible "cis" women.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 11 fun2 insightful - 10 fun3 insightful - 11 fun -  (5 children)

Just the bigots

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 14 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

No no, all of them. All women flaunt their "cis" womanhood in one way or another, can you imagine how triggering it would be for the poor stunning trans ladies? "Cis" women need to stay away from them, and trans ladies definitely deserve spaces only for them when they cannot be disturbed, inconvenienced or attacked.

[–]loveSloaneSeX iS a mAtrIx 14 insightful - 6 fun14 insightful - 5 fun15 insightful - 6 fun -  (3 children)

can you imagine how triggering it would be for the poor stunning trans ladies?

How dare you call them “stunning” but leave out “brave”! Transphobe…

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 13 insightful - 4 fun13 insightful - 3 fun14 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

My most sincerest apologies! What is an appropriate public shaming for such a crime by omission?

[–]loveSloaneSeX iS a mAtrIx 14 insightful - 4 fun14 insightful - 3 fun15 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

You’re canceled.

Sorry, I don’t want to do it but it’s just the way it goes.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 13 insightful - 4 fun13 insightful - 3 fun14 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Well, I guess it' s only fair and reasonable. If this is how society works, then I can only accept the punishment and vanish into thin air so that I can make the World a better place!

[–]Fleurista💐 Transsexual 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I'm going to hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. This seems like a really awful idea, albeit born from good intentions (we hope). In the past I probably would have thought it was a wonderful display of inclusivity and true equality, but now I cringe. These poor girls don't deserve this. On one hand, it blows my mind that anyone could feel so entitled and bully others like this, but on the other it's not surprising seeing men use force and make a big stink to get what they want, especially if it means they can access female spaces and bodies.

[–]worried19[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

The frustrating thing is that it doesn't have to be this way. It doesn't have to be one side against the other. In a better world, people would be able to talk about these issues and agree on compromises. It really upsets me that there is no moderation, no compromise, no debate, no discussion.

[–]Penultimate_Penance 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I totally agree. There are a lot of compromises that would make trans identified people's lives a lot easier without impinging on women's rights, but they're refusing to take the middle ground. I'd be on their side if they weren't determined to step on women.

[–]worried19[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, that's how they lost my support. They're pushing away people who would otherwise be on their side. And for what? I don't think this is a winning strategy, not at all.

[–]PhilosopherTentaclesis presently on sabbatical -- leave all messages with the Dean. 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

That's where my thinking is. I've been tracking how this drama has helped erode LGB support. Hostility flares up, spitefulness gets entrenched on both sides, and tolerance goes down. Nobody wins.

[–]Fleurista💐 Transsexual 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'm sure watching this all devolve has been like watching a particularly sad car crash.

My gay childhood boy friends were very supportive of me when I transitioned; my former bosses were a lesbian couple who knew me from before and are the sweetest, caring, most protective people; and my BFF (who knows my history) is bi and she's like a sister to me, so I didn't realize that those community relations soured overall until really exploring online at the beginning of this year.

There are so many people in my life who are LGB, and those closest have always been nothing but supportive of me and of trans people in general. The thought of someone trying to shame or bully a loved one into sleeping with them is angering, trans or not. And to see these people who have always been supportive suddenly be referred to as hateful and transphobic for not wanting to sleep with trans people is so beyond irritating. It's hard to be upset with anyone who is totally put off by trans people because of things like that.

[–]worried19[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is one of those things where I feel bad that now I look at the trans community with suspicion. Of course there are still plenty of moderate trans people who are just living their lives normally doing the best they can. But then there are also these activists, who all seem extremely unpleasant. I've never seen or heard of a friendly TRA. Honestly, I don't get how we got from 2015 to 2021. Things changed so dramatically in such a short span of time. I guess I peaked in early 2017. It was impossible not to notice how much crazier everything was getting.

I'm glad you have friendly and supportive people in your own life. It's my hope that people understand that the trans community is made up of individuals with varying beliefs. I appreciate that there are trans people in the public eye speaking out. Even if they get cancelled or attacked, they're still trying. Much respect to Buck Angel and Scott Newgent and others who are trying their best. And to you, too. I think your YouTube channel is helpful. Every little bit helps to show that trans people are not a monolith.

[–]PhilosopherTentaclesis presently on sabbatical -- leave all messages with the Dean. 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's an unholy mess, and I think the damage is going to affect everyone to some degree, GD patients and conscientious trans people included -- because of ideological extremists and the controls they were blithely handed (social media).

[–]worried19[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Seriously. I'm a moderate. I've always been a moderate. I would love to be able to find compromises. But trans rights activists are so extreme, they label even people who are friendly and eager to seek compromises as the enemy. They're turning people who used to be allies against them. It really sucks. Apparently I'm evil because I don't think children should transition and biological males don't belong in women's sports or prisons.

This was common sense only a few years ago, but TRAs just keep pushing and pushing and pushing. Eventually they're going to push too far, and the whole community is going to face backlash, including the moderate trans people who had nothing to do with this activism. And don't forget lesbians, gays, and bisexuals, who also got dragged along without any input from them.

[–]PhilosopherTentaclesis presently on sabbatical -- leave all messages with the Dean. 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Somehow, somewhere, activists began to think that progressivism can do no wrong. Naïveté? Shelteredness? Ignorance of history?

And here we are.

[–]Fleurista💐 Transsexual 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It really doesn't! There was a time when it wasn't, so it seems hopeful that that's something we can go back to, or maybe a better version of that.

I was going to ask you something here, but instead I'm going to ask it in a post--thanks for the inspiration!

[–]worried19[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I look forward to your post!

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It’s disappointing, but not surprising. The same guidance existed under the Obama administration and when Trump reversed it, I’m not sure if much really changed. I don’t think it make a big difference now, but I do worry about the future. Some amount of trans young people have used bathrooms for many years without much coming of it, but it was really small group of people and it was kept very quiet. I really don’t like how all this is being politicized because laws in either direction won’t fix it. States are trying to pass laws to ban it, but many involve invasive genitals checks and will probably never become an actual practice, but the people doing it think it is popular politically. States and cities that were already allowing it will still be allowing it and those that weren’t probably hardly have any trans students anyway. I do want girls who are negatively impacted to sue though so maybe the courts can clarify Title IX to be only about sex.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 3 insightful - 10 fun3 insightful - 9 fun4 insightful - 10 fun -  (0 children)

Fantastic. Its a win for fairness and equality

[–]FlippyKing 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The administration can not change definitions written into the law by congress. That said, they very often try to change definitions found in law and judges at trial let them get away with it, because power colludes with power. The equality act will allow judges to pretend congress' intent with title nine was to allow men to claim womanhood for their own all along.