you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 5 insightful - 8 fun5 insightful - 7 fun6 insightful - 8 fun -  (3 children)

First of all if like to thank you for the question. Before I proceed with an answer id like to point out a few things, which may be reasons why you won't get an answer.

1st: Your question itself is loaded. By asking a negative "why is it not... ?" everyone who wants to answer will instantly have to start any point by defending a position your question assigns to them. A position they may not necessarily share. 2nd: In your question you equate male bodied = men instead of just using male. Here you're again injecting your own position into a question...

Nevermind. I just read the rest of your post and it continues in the same charged way by equating trans women's need for safety - which is the same desire as cis women's - to predatory behavior via the red flag bit. Maybe you can do better in your next post.

Do you find it a bit disturbing that destroying single sex spaces for women would directly benefit pedophiles and run of the mill sexual predators? Is it really worth it to make a fraction of a minority of the male population feel more "validated"?

I'm just gonna respond with a simple answer. Increased trans visibility will lead to decreased safety in strictly sex segregated spaces. Simply preventing trans women to enter these spaces wont change that. Why do I think so. Let's assume that spaces where strictly sex segregated. You know have trans men - which greatly increase in numbers atm using women's space. Let's assume a few of these pass - which is likely. You know have what looks like a cis man in a female space. In my opinion this would make it even easier for potential predators.

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The issue is not transwomen's transness it's the fact that they have male bodies. If a transwomen uses a unisex communal changing room it is no longer creepy and predatory, everyone has already consented to share that changing room with male and female bodies. The issue is deliberately crossing the line into predator territory by going into women's single sex spaces without women's knowledge or consent. For 99% of society women means female bodied person. So when women see women only on the door they understand it means they are only sharing the communal changing room with other female bodied people. It is a violation for a male bodied person to enter that space. Only to the trans movement does it also mean a male bodied person who claims to be female.

This site breaks it down quite clearly: "There is no right to share intimate spaces with members of the opposite sex without their consent"

The refusal to accept third/unisex spaces as a good compromise only adds to the creepiness of the demand. Also if any male is permitted in a female changing room the sign should always be changed to unisex so people know exactly what types of bodies they are consenting to share the communal changing room with. You are asking women to give male bodied people the benefit of a doubt. It's not all men all over again.

Enough men are predators that we need to be able to enforce flashing & related laws to hold predatory men accountable in full force without any confusion. Any male bodied person in a women's changing room is a violation. Full stop. Any visible penis in a women's communal changing room is flashing and the male bodied person should be charged as a sex offender. The simple solution is for transwomen to use the space reserved for male bodies, a private individual changing room or a third unisex space which many facilities already have (Family changing rooms).

Your side is making the insane claim that men aka people with male bodies should be treated as though they were actually female. You should backup your claim with evidence. Prove to us that there is a special subset of men who are as low of a threat women as women are to each other. Give us good reasons why women should treat a subset of male bodied people exactly the same as female bodied people. My side is based on objective easily verifiable reality and decades of stats showing that men as a group are a threat to women's safety.

Transmen still have a lower rate of violence especially sexual violence than transwomen, because they are female. Many transmen do not pass at all, in fact I recommend that most of them continue to use female only spaces for their own safety. Their female socialization often gives the game away even if they do pass. I have no problem sharing a communal changing room with the Buck Angels of the world. Her female socialization makes it obvious that she is actually a woman. Many if not most passing trans men can put women at ease with a simple explanation. Heck the mastectomy scars make it really obvious they are actually women. Detransitioned women should also be welcome in female only spaces even if they look fairly masculine for the rest of their lives. They have female bodies, therefore they are welcome in women's single sex spaces. It's not fair or right to force men to share their single sex changing rooms with female bodied people either, but less of a pressing issue, because female bodied people aka women aren't a major threat to men's safety.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 3 insightful - 9 fun3 insightful - 8 fun4 insightful - 9 fun -  (1 child)

I didn't intend to reply tbh so I'll kepp it brief. Linking a GC blog that does not adress my singular point [trans men are an even easier front for predators than trans women]] so I doubt you mind I simply ignore it. No objection? Great.

I did not ask females to give males the benefit of the doubt. So I'm gonna ignore that as well. Much obliged. I'll stop being snarky. I tend to respond to comments one paragraph at a time since I'm on mobile. I read through the rest of your comment and noticed that you don't engage with my point. But I'll adress the last paragraph you wrote.

Transmen still have a lower rate of violence especially sexual violence than transwomen, because they are female.

I did not make any assumption to the contrary.

Many transmen do not pass at all, in fact I recommend that most of them continue to use female only spaces for their own safety. Their female socialization often gives the game away even if they do pass.

And now you proceed with the toupee fallacy. Let me give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're exceptionally great at spotting trans men. You're not most of the population in this case and your run of the mill predator would still have greater chance passing as a trans man than as a trans woman.

It's not fair or right to force men to share their single sex changing rooms with female bodied people

I agree in a kinda reverse sexism way, but I don't remember bringing that up. Sooo... Yeaaahhh...

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 14 insightful - 3 fun14 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Trans men are not an easier front for predators, nor do they pose the same risk to women as transwomen. Thanks to self ID there are lot of transwomen that are unambiguously male, because they are male.

You are ignoring my point that it is predatory and creepy to violate women's consent when a male bodied person enters single sex spaces reserved for people female bodies.

Edit: Also if we don't allow trans people to change their driver's licenses and birth certificates we have an easy non intrusive way to verify who is actually male or female when needed if someone's actual sex is ambiguous thanks to body modification. Body modification is a choice. People who choose to modify their body should accept the consequences of that choice and not destroy the rights of other people to consent, safety, privacy and dignity.