all 34 comments

[–]Penultimate_Penance 15 insightful - 5 fun15 insightful - 4 fun16 insightful - 5 fun -  (3 children)

In South Korea the sexism is more blatant and extreme. In the U.S. it is more under the surface, but still there in liberal circles. I have a strong suspicion that women who grew up with more blatant sexist cultures (quite often religious) in the U.S. have similar gender nonconformity to women in the take off the corset movement in Korea. There are a lot of people in the U.S. who deny sexism is even still a thing and women are gaslighted en masse to believe it isn't that bad. It really is that bad for women no matter where you live in the world. Some places it's more likely to happen out in the open in others behind closed doors. Either way women are still suffering.

I'm rooting for them. I don't shave my legs and I don't wear makeup. I like braids too much to keep my hair short all the time. Left my religion, because if god is a sexist asshole he isn't worth worshipping. So I totally get where they are coming from. I wish more women all over the world took off the corset. That would really get the ball rolling on women's liberation if we collectively said fuck this. Fuck all of this and embraced our goddamn humanity together. Femininity is a gilded cage. The misogynist men who claim to be women can have it.

[–]worried19[S] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

There are a lot of people in the U.S. who deny sexism is even still a thing and women are gaslighted en masse to believe it isn't that bad.

Good point. As a teenager, I knew nothing about feminism beyond the fact that it wasn't thought of in a good light. I also thought that sexism had been "solved" and was no longer a major problem in the USA. I can see how girls who are being told by liberal feminism that femininity is feminist would be more likely to believe that rejecting femininity also means rejecting womanhood. It's crazy to me how things have gotten so turned around.

[–]Penultimate_Penance 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah it's nuts. I grew up religious, so I felt very strongly about sexism from a very young age since it was blatant in my little subset of American culture. Curious did you grow up with less blatant sexism in your local community?

[–]worried19[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It was there, just less blatant. Like my grandparents' evangelical church didn't allow women to be pastors, but I wasn't even aware of that until I was in my late teens. It wasn't on my radar. Somehow that never came up in Sunday school or VBS or Bible camp when I was a kid.

I feel like I missed a lot of female socialization because by the age of 5, I was pretty much "living as" and passing as a boy. I spent all my time with boys, played on their sports' teams, and didn't socialize with girls at all. I knew I was a girl, but I didn't think of myself as a "real" one. When I got into high school I did realize that a lot of heterosexual dating seemed sexist, and I wanted no part of that, but otherwise, it didn't appear to me like there was overt sexism. However, since I wasn't talking to women or girls much, I'm sure I overlooked a lot.

[–]worried19[S] 13 insightful - 5 fun13 insightful - 4 fun14 insightful - 5 fun -  (6 children)

Shout out to u/theory_of_this. I'd particularly like to get your thoughts on these women who are actively choosing to reject femininity and see it as oppression. I know it's a long video, but all the women mention that being "default" (non-feminine) has improved their lives, their health, and made them feel free to be their true selves. How does this square with your belief that women want femininity and would not willingly give it up en masse?

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 7 insightful - 7 fun7 insightful - 6 fun8 insightful - 7 fun -  (3 children)

Busy right now. But when I get some time I'll respond.

[–]worried19[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

No problem, I'll look forward to it.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 6 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

Sorry about my absence at the moment. My time allocation must be off.

[–]worried19[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No worries. I don't want you to feel pressured. Whenever you get a chance.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

So I watched it.

How does this square with your belief that women want femininity and would not willingly give it up en masse?

Because they'll always remain a minority.

South Korea possibly does have a very strict gender norms with women often socially pressured into a narrow version of gender expression.

This may be a symptom of change on that. That they can have more freedom to act against that. Which of course I am all for.

LGBT rights probably are weak in South Korea.

Part of that will be low tolerance of gender non conformity.

A couple things strike me.

A lot of this is "circling masculinity."

A lot of masculinity isn't exactly freedom.

"Taking off the Corset" to put on a suit a tie isn't rejecting discomfort for absolute comfort.

Suits and ties are classic uniforms of masculinity. Ties and shirts aren't comfortable.

I'm not against suits and ties but they are constricting. A lot of the time they are symbolic of male regimentation and non expression. I have enjoyed suits and ties and often wore one ironically when I was younger as a fashion statement. I was exploring. I recall getting a compliment from a butch looking woman. She must have recognised my intuition into their appeal. Which she has.

To me a problem for gc is saying not recognising a lot of this is circling masculinity. The defaultness here is always what men are generally doing. If long hair was more the default for men would the women here have long hair?

People outside of gc don't see a woman in a suit with short hair as escaping gender norms. She is approaching male gender norms. She is being a female crossdresser. Which obviously I am not against.

Do I think these women are happier rejecting femininity and circling masculinity? Yes. I want them to be free to do that.

Do I think South Korean society might be less strict on enforcing gender norms? Yes.

But I don't think South Korean women will en masse give up femininity.

[–]worried19[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Because they'll always remain a minority.

Maybe not. It shows that it's possible for thousands of women to give up femininity, even in an extreme and repressive environment. I think it bodes well for the prospect of eradicating gender altogether. I'm not saying it's realistic at this point in history. But I believe it can happen.

People outside of gc don't see a woman in a suit with short hair as escaping gender norms. She is approaching male gender norms. She is being a female crossdresser.

I know the video was incredibly long, so I don't blame you if you didn't watch every minute, but only 2 women out of 100 were wearing suits. The other 98 were dressed in regular, casual, non-feminine clothes. It's interesting because they have different styles. They didn't have to give up their individuality when they gave up feminine clothing. They have different haircuts, different clothes, and different accessories. I'm not sure why you chose to focus on the two women wearing the more masculine suits when the vast majority were much more neutral.

[–]FlanJam 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Hmm, I don't have a straight answer but I can speculate. I think westerners put a heavier emphasis on individuality, which is probably part of the reason why gender ideology is so popular there. With that mindset, I suppose they find it easier to say "I'm not like other girls I don't want femininity" as opposed to saying "we girls shouldn't be forced to be feminine". Its a more individualistic way of approaching things, focusing on escaping femininity for the individual rather than the group.

And on the flip side, the beauty standards in Korea are absolutely insane, its the plastic surgery capital of the world. So Korean women have a clear enemy to band against and clear goals to advocate for. There's a much greater class consciousness when you can look around and clearly see a particular group of people (women) being oppressed in ways men are not.

Another thought I have is maybe the pendulum is swinging the other way in the west. Western countries have made a lot of progress but maybe now we're on the back swing, as I've noticed lgbt acceptance has dropped slightly and a lot of woke people are saying things that contradict what feminists and lgbt activists have said in the past.

[–]worried19[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Makes sense. Feminists in South Korea have a common enemy to fight against. In contrast, Western women are told that their society is already great, and any sense that something is wrong is handwaved away.

a lot of woke people are saying things that contradict what feminists and lgbt activists have said in the past.

That's what gets me. It's like all the progress that second-wave feminists made is being thrown away in favor of these new beliefs. Female people get told that there's only one way to be a woman and one way to be a feminist, and that's to be the kind that loves performative femininity and porn and kink and prostitution. And because there's no consciousness of women as a sex class, it's every woman for herself. I am not surprised so many young women want nothing to do with modern womanhood.

[–]FlanJam 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's like all the progress that second-wave feminists made is being thrown away in favor of these new beliefs.

Yeah its almost unbelievable how they've done a complete 180, its like we're in the twlight zone and everything is backwards. And its scary because a lot of the things they're saying is so dangerous. Like you mentioned, the kink, the prostitution, the objectification and sexualization. I really hope things start to swing back the other way.

[–][deleted] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

How is having long hair performative?

[–]worried19[S] 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

It's part of traditional femininity. Women's long hair is supposed to be decorative. The only thing most men are expected to do to their hair is wash it and comb it. Women are expected to style their hair, tease it, dye it, use decorative items like ribbons in it, and spend lots of money on it. And the vast majority of girls are trained from birth to keep their hair long. You don't ever see little girls with buzz cuts or close cropped heads. Even pixie cuts are very rare. Girls are trained to value long hair, and most parents keep their daughters' hair long.

[–][deleted] 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

Most every human throughout the few hundred thousand years of our history had long hair, and I can't agree that it's "performative" not to cut it. That's just an arbitrary script about a natural process, and one that only applies to dominant western culture. There are still some intact societies where everyone has long hair and there is ongoing colonial violence against indigenous boys with long hair in the U.S. What you wrote also only applies to certain hair types; long natural hair on black women is stigmatized. The reality and history of human hair is not akin to the corset, but much more complex.

If I had children they would all have long hair unless they asked for something different. If something is gendered why is the male option always seen as less sexual and more confident? Anyhow when I had short hair it cost much more. With long hair I get it cut rarely and for over a year now I have cut it myself. Men with the popular buzz cut fade or hybrid styles spend a lot more on their hair than me, though yes the minimum standards for male hygiene are not comparable. On the other hand, long hair on men continues to be more taboo than short hair on women, see the most loathed "man bun" and workplace requirements. It was newsworthy when the U.S. Army changed regulation this year so women can wear ponytails or shave their heads, but men still cannot have any notable head hair or beards. Why is facial hair seen as unprofessional for men? The direction of modern life is stigmatizing more and more types of body hair, and this past year we were told that long hair is unhygienic! I think this goes even deeper than gender.

[–]worried19[S] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Right, but I'm talking about modern Western culture and modern South Korean culture here. Long hair is considered an essential part of femininity and a major part of appealing to men. There's a reason why women who cut their hair off are asked if they're lesbian or now (in these woke times) non-binary.

If I had children they would all have long hair unless they asked for something different. If something is gendered why is the male option always seen as less sexual and more confident?

Well, women's sex appeal is tied to hair length in this culture. I agree it's all cultural. Men could be trained to prefer short hair or no hair on women, but in our society they consider it mannish or a sign of lesbianism. Short hair for men, by contrast, is seen as no fuss. I have short hair, and all I do is cut it every 5 weeks or so and comb it after I get out of the shower. I consider it much more practical. It doesn't obscure my vision, get caught on things, no one can pull it to incapacitate me, and it doesn't get tangled. I don't even have to spend time thinking about it, which is exactly how I like it.

I've heard stories of women being so attached to their hair as a sign of femininity that they cry when they get bad haircuts. Women think they can't have short hair because they don't "have the right face for it" or they would have a severe emotional reaction to getting it all cut off. This is all evidence of cultural training for women to value long hair in a performative and decorative way.

[–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Long hair is considered an essential part of femininity and a major part of appealing to men.

Yes. And as recently as post-WWII cutting or shaving off a woman's hair was used as a public shaming technique (as was done to "collaborators" in postwar France).

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Huh, I never associated crying after a bad haircut with losing a sign of my femininity. But it does feel like a violation when you tell someone to do one thing with a part of your body and they override your instructions to do what they want. And then you have to live with the results until it grows out, which can be months or years. I don't know why so many hairstylists are crazed to cut off hair. One of my aunts did it to me when I was young, said she would trim my hair and cut it all off.

There isn't the same timeframe for short hair, but you wouldn't be upset at all if someone cut your hair badly?

[–]worried19[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Not at all. I've had bad haircuts before. It's not common because my hair is so short there's not much you can do to fuck it up, but if I don't like it, I just take scissors to it and make adjustments when I get home. Both my partner and I cut each other's hair during lockdown and there were some mess ups with that, but nothing serious.

I always associate crying after a haircut to be a female stereotype. I've never heard of a man doing that. I guess it's possible, but I don't think most men are that attached to their hair.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Well men should cry more about everything imo. Maybe they can start by becoming attached to their hair.

I don't think we're going to come to agreement on hair and it's fine. You like short hair regardless of cultural influences and I would like long hair regardless of cultural influences. Unlike makeup and heels and corsets it's natural, free, comfortable, and has no side effects. I think it's silly to associate short hair with feminist politics, but it doesn't affect me if other women do. Though I do think the conversation should include some consideration of the fact not all women have the same hair texture or cultural context.

[–]worried19[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

No worries. I think in our current society, there's an unfortunate association between hair length and sexual and gender stereotypes. In an ideal world, the length of one's hair would just be a matter of personal preference and would have no societal significance at all. But it complicates matters that girls and women are trained to keep it long. It's hard to know if it's a genuine preference or the result of pressure and coercion.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's hard to know if it's a genuine preference or the result of pressure and coercion.

Yes, I get you, preference and expectation get very tangled.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Eh, mines two feet long but I only wash and brush it every few days. I dont disagree with your premise but long hair can be close to no maintenance.

[–]worried19[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It can be, but women are certainly expected to put work into their hair that men aren't. I'm sure you've seen dudes with long, straggly, unkempt hair. If a woman kept hers like that, she would get judged.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, true. And I definitely agree that women are generally expected to be more ornamental and that hair is no exception to that.

Hair, perfect skin, makeup on top, the magic combo of clothing that’s revealing but not, and also sexy/cute/modest/tasteful/fashionable/flattering/effortless, a thousand products to remove all the hair below the neck, tapes and silicon forms for breasts, shape wear and control top pantyhose (because your thighs are out of control if they’re not compressed?) cantilevered in toothpick heels..it’s an endless list of shit that’s just expected by way too many people.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Whoa with the generalizations there, Worried19. Many boys & men in many cultures over history have worn long hair & wigs. Sometimes the styling has been casual & no-nonsense, in other cases the styling has been elaborate. Check out some paintings of Louis XIV.

Also, historically in the West, people in many countries hardly ever bathed - & rarely washed their hair. For example, in the 17th & 18th centuries when both wealthy women & men in France, England & other parts of of Europe wore elaborate hairstyles & wigs, hair was kept clean by use of powdering. There were even special rooms for powdering hair - which is where the term "powder room" still in use today comes from.

https://www.geriwalton.com/hair-powder-history-of-its-popularity-and-unpopularity/#:~:text=Hair%20powder%20was%20at%20one,were%20known%20to%20use%20flour.

Further, even in the eras and cultures where males customarily wear their hair short, it's not true that

The only thing most men are expected to do to their hair is wash it and comb it.

You might want to look into the history of hair pomades and products like Brylcreem. Also: https://youtu.be/nUb6-jtkLD4

And the vast majority of girls are trained from birth to keep their hair long. You don't ever see little girls with buzz cuts or close cropped heads. Even pixie cuts are very rare. Girls are trained to value long hair, and most parents keep their daughters' hair long.

Please specify what era, country & specific cultural milieu you are referring to. Your generalizations do not apply across all cultures & eras, nor do they apply to the "lived experience" of many of us from Western countries like the UK & UK who are living now. When I grew up in the NY metro area of US in the 1960s, pixie cuts were far more common than long hair in little girls, particularly girls from larger families. Most of the girls I knew were only allowed to grow our hair long when we became old enough to care for it ourselves. Our parents couldn't be bothered. And none of our mothers had long hair. This was true of both white & black people I knew.

I know many parents of many different generations who did & do not keep their daughters hair long & who certainly did not train girls "to value long hair." As a parent myself, I've never heard of that this is part of standard parenting dogma. Can you cite some of the parenting books that say this?

Finally, I must take issue with your claim that

the vast majority of girls are trained from birth to keep their hair long.

Have you ever seen any babies? Most of them are born nearly bald. If they have hair, it's patchy, fine & very short. The only way girls could be trained from birth to keep their hair long would be to give nenoates hair extensions.

[–]worried19[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm talking about modern Western culture here. Long hair is considered a major part of performative femininity.

Have you ever seen any babies? Most of them are born nearly bald.

I guess toddlers then. I consider toddlers the same as babies. Whenever their hair gets long enough to cut, the boys have it cut short and the girls' parents decide to keep theirs long in almost all cases. When was the last time you saw a 6 or 10 year old girl with a buzz cut or crew cut or shaved head? Little girls don't normally get a choice, either.

I'm talking about now, not back in the 60s. I wasn't alive back then. But if you go to an elementary school today, I would challenge you to find even one girl with a cropped short head of hair. I was the only girl at any of my schools from kindergarten to 12th grade who had a boys' cut.

[–]worried19[S] 11 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

By the way, in case anyone is curious, someone on Ovarit told me that the woman at 16:19 is well known in the "off the corset" movement.

If you're interested, her name is Whi-su "Whistle" Heo, and she was the executive producer of this video. She's the director of SOGNO and a fantastic dancer. She makes choreographic videos where she performs non-sexualized dance, which is important because K-pop culture pushes female dancers to always perform extremely sexualized and infantalized dance.

One of her videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNRD8orpvvs

[–]FlanJam 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

As a kpop fan I enjoyed the video lol

[–]worried19[S] 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I don't know anything about that style of music, but she's a good dancer.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Hi worried! Thanks for sharing! I’m glad those women are speaking out and trying to exist in a way that is more comfortable for them. I’m not an expert on South Korean culture or anything and I’m sure there are many reasons it’s different. I feel like Women’s Lib/Second Wave Feminism didn’t take place in many Asia countries at the same time it did in many “western” countries. Things just stayed more traditional and changes was slower. I feel the liberal feminism we have now is like a product of patriarchal backlash and co-opting of second wave. Maybe some of it is because it’s a newer movement there that that just hasn’t happened yet and they are still more in their “second wave” moment? I don’t really know, but just I’m thinking about it.

[–]worried19[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That makes sense. I agree South Korea is probably on their second wave. They're likely behind us by several decades in terms of feminism. I hope they are able to stay strong radical feminists, though, and not have it get all corrupted by gender theory.