Thoughts on this thread?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from ovarit.com

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[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 3 insightful - 8 fun3 insightful - 7 fun4 insightful - 8 fun -  (58 children)

What about them? What does female violence have to do with anything?

This is male violence. Anyway, the reason they posted about him is because he's trans. If he was a cis man or a cis woman, this would not have been posted.

Do you think anyone is saying that testosterone is the causative factor in crime?

A few users are saying T made him violent, which I think is ridiculous. 1st, women already have some testosterone. 2. By their logic, men with low testosterone or trans women taking estrogen and testosterone blockers are naturally less violent. But they insist trans women have the same rate of crime as cis men. I wonder why since he has low testosterone. Maybe we should have a high testosterone defense for AFABs, like we have an insanity defense?

No, grown adults shouldn’t get access to any drugs they want just because they want them. The average person is not educated or intelligent enough to responsibly fuck with their endocrine system.

T already requires a prescription. I understand many GCs are against physically transitioning minors. But why shouldn't adults get to decide if they want to transition or not?

Pffft sure it’s not substance abuse because she says she’s a dude.

Substance abuse, according to Google, is overindulgence in or dependence on an addictive substance, especially alcohol or drugs.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Substance abuse is the abuse if a substance. Like using excess testosterone for cosmetic effects.

She’s not male. Interesting how you refuse to define male and female when you get about telling us women are male and testes are super female.

Adults shouldn’t decide because adults are stupid, selfish, and don’t know shit about their own endocrine systems.

Look at the stats. We dont claim transwomen retain male criminality, we know it from statistics. Please quote the part where anyone suggests that testosterone definitely makes all women violent aggressors?

You are as usual taking a comment and instead of accepting it’s talked about as a possible contributing factor, you’re acting like everyone on ovarit insists a drop of testosterone will turn any female into a raging monster. Do you actually choose to interpret things in the most wrong and silly way possible or are you just extremely unlucky?

Testosterone defense is pants on head stupid and also requires your overly literal, nuance free interpretations of what any of us say to make any sense.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 3 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 7 fun -  (5 children)

Substance abuse is the abuse if a substance. Like using excess testosterone for cosmetic effects.

Taking prescribed doses of T for the purpose of transitioning is not "substance abuse".

Adults shouldn’t decide because adults are stupid, selfish, and don’t know shit about their own endocrine systems.

Again, T requires a prescription. Many trans men take T without experiencing significant health problems and are the majority are happy with the results. A few people detransition, which is why adults should think and decide if they really want this or not.

Look at the stats. We dont claim transwomen retain male criminality, we know it from statistics.

But if they are doing HRT they would have low testosterone. Which proves testosterone did not cause this man's violence.

You are as usual taking a comment and instead of accepting it’s talked about as a possible contributing factor, you’re acting like everyone on ovarit insists a drop of testosterone will turn any female into a raging monster.

But I think it's silly they decided T was a contributing factor. There are cis women who commit violent acts, as well as cis men. Why did this case stand out?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Taking prescribed doses of T for the purpose of transitioning is not "substance abuse"

lol whatever. Semantics.

Again, T requires a prescription. Many trans men take T without experiencing significant health problems and are the majority are happy with the results. A few people detransition, which is why adults should think and decide if they really want this or not.

What? A prescription is not the same as comprehension. A prescription is not the same thing as necessary to live. I don’t think you understand what I’m saying. Your reasoning makes zero sense.

But if they are doing HRT they would have low testosterone. Which proves testosterone did not cause this man's violence.

That’s..not how any of that works. Do you genuinely believe this? If so, you need more correction than I am qualified to provide.

But I think it's silly they decided T was a contributing factor. There are cis women who commit violent acts, as well as cis men. Why did this case stand out?

Mate I think everything you’ve said is silly. Thinking something is silly is not meaningful or a criticism. You thinking it is silly does not invalidate their questions or make the questions these women ask foolish. It does not make women factually as violent as men. Ask them. Stop treating gc like a hive mind and expecting us to answer for others.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Is your argument that any prescription written where "not necessary to live" is malpractice?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Nope. I’m saying hormones for transition are available too easily and should not be used without far stricter guidelines and wait times. I’m saying suicidal threats are not a good reason to give someone cosmetic treatments. Suicidal people belong on 1:1 watch in a psychiatric hospital setting until they are of sound mind.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for clarifying.

[–]emptiedriver 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Taking prescribed doses of T for the purpose of transitioning is not "substance abuse".

If getting prescriptions is easy, you can abuse prescribed meds. It's a common issue. Hormones have been prescribed incredibly easily.

Again, T requires a prescription.

Again, look at opiates, valium or xanax, or various kinds of methamphetamines.

But if they are doing HRT they would have low testosterone. Which proves testosterone did not cause this man's violence.

Males get regular testosterone every day for their entire lives. They don't get sudden injections once a month, but their bodies have been built out of it since they were little boys, and even more so after they hit puberty. Even most men who have replaced T with estrogen still have higher testosterone than women just due to what their body naturally produces, but even if they didn't they have the lasting effects of what was already made.

There are cis women who commit violent acts, as well as cis men. Why did this case stand out?

I don't think people are saying this case stands out against some other case of a non-medicated woman attacking a woman, but just that in this case, a woman who is being violent should not be prescribed testosterone. This is a bad treatment plan. I would not think someone would encourage an abusive "cis man" to take steroids either. Rage and violence are well known potential side effects so if they seem to be manifesting, the prescription should be reconsidered even if your position is that the drug can be beneficial.

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (50 children)

Reported serious adverse outcomes include heart attack, heart failure, stroke, depression, hostility, aggression, liver toxicity, and male infertility. Individuals abusing high doses of testosterone have also reported withdrawal symptoms, such as depression, fatigue, irritability, loss of appetite, decreased libido, and insomnia.

The manufacturers of two prescription topical testosterone gel products, AndroGel 1% and Testim 1%, were required to include a boxed warning on the products’ labels.

The new warning will alert prescribers to the abuse potential of testosterone and the serious adverse outcomes, especially those related to heart and mental health that have been reported in association with testosterone/AAS abuse. In addition, all testosterone labeling has been revised to include information about adverse outcomes from abuse and dependence of testosterone/AAS. The Warning and Precautions section advises prescribers of the importance of measuring serum testosterone concentration if abuse is suspected.

https://www.masstortnexus.com/mass-torts-news/fda-adds-addiction-warning-to-testosterone/

Drug abuse is intentional non-therapeutic use of a drug, even once, for its rewarding psychological and physiological effects. Abuse and misuse of Testosterone are seen in male and female adults and adolescents. https://www.drugs.com/pro/testosterone.html#LINK_43bb1db4-89eb-43c5-b380-09dcbf6d7c27

https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugfacts/anabolic-steroids

https://newyork.legalexaminer.com/legal/fda-warns-about-addictive-risks-with-testosterone-replacement-drugs/

https://www.medpagetoday.com/endocrinology/steroids/61021

http://testosteroneaddiction.com/

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 3 insightful - 8 fun3 insightful - 7 fun4 insightful - 8 fun -  (49 children)

All drugs have side effects. It's up to the person taking them to read the labels, use the drugs responsibly and inform their doctor of whatever side effects. I take a medication with a black box warning. Should I stop taking it just because some people abuse it? Taking prescribed doses of T to transition isn't abuse.

[–]MarkTwainiac 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (48 children)

You are conflating two totally separate issues: 1) drugs that people abuse because they have mood-altering & other effects they like & which cause them to experience some kind of high, & are psychologically & physically addictive; and 2) drugs that have unwanted "side effects."

Yes, all drugs have "side effects." But not all drugs are addictive or are subject to abuse.

Also to your earlier statement that

women already have some testosterone

Yes, that's true. But women normally have testosterone levels that are a teeny-tiny fraction of the male levels that trans-identified females try to reach & mimic by taking drugs. Moreover, endogenous T produced naturally by a girl or woman's ovaries & adrenals is not at all the same as the exogenous, artificial T mass-produced in factories by Big Pharma.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 3 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 7 fun -  (47 children)

You are conflating two totally separate issues: 1) drugs that people abuse because they have mood-altering & other effects they like & which cause them to experience some kind of high, & are psychologically & physically addictive; and 2) drugs that have unwanted "side effects."

Yes, all drugs have "side effects." But not all drugs are addictive or subject to abuse.

Sure, but trans men taking T to physically transition is not abusing T.

Yes, that's true. But women normally have testosterone levels that are a teeny-tiny fraction of the male levels that trans-identified females try to reach & mimic by taking drugs. Moreover, endogenous T produced naturally by a girl or woman's ovaries & adrenals is not at all the same as the exogenous, artificial T mass-produced in factories by Big Pharma.

Sure, but this is what trans men take to pass and to be mentally healthy and not be dysphoric. It's no different than me taking my anti-depressants, ADHD and blood pressure meds.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (39 children)

It’s totally different and exactly why I maintain that the average adult is not educated enough about their own biology or pharmacy to mess around with it.

Ssri discontinuation is a serious issue with measurable physical effects as well as psychological distress. It’s nothing like testosterone

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (14 children)

Ssri discontinuation is a serious issue with measurable physical effects as well as psychological distress.

I agree with GB on this. How does stopping T not also cause both those things? It doesn’t mean you have to like female people taking it, but that is how it is for them.

[–]MarkTwainiac 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I think it's irresponsible to conflate SSRIs with factory-made exogenous cross-sex sex hormones.

But more to the point: If female people taking exogenous T stop taking it & they still have their ovaries, their ovaries should start functioning again once the exogenous T is out of their systems.

Also, why the glaring double standard? Millions of menopausal, post-menopausal & post-oophorectomy women like me were suddenly forced off our HRT after the WHI study results were published in 2002. The HRT I was on was back then was Estratest, a combo of estrogen & testosterone that got pulled off the market entirely.

No one today seems to give a shit about what women - bog standard biological women of the birthing kind - of my age & following generations went through or are now experiencing nearly 20 years later.

The outsized sympathy automatically given to people with "gender dysphoria" by those who give not a flying fuck what their mothers, grandmums, aunts & so on have gone through blows my mind. Sorry, this does not come off to me as "klnd."

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Hi MT! I certainly don’t mean to conflate them in every way, but for the two things that Houseplant mentioned I just don’t see how it is that different. You are right that their body might start producing again if they haven’t had an oophorectomy, but we don’t really know that and I don’t know if long term usage damages their body’s ability to do that.

I’m completely with you on women needing better access to HRT and I certainly don’t mean to indicate I care more trans people. It was just the topic being discussed. Women like you should be given the treatment you need and I’m sorry it hasn’t been that way.

[–]MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

My comment wasn't directed at you personally, peakingatthemoment. It was directed to the general attitude of trans-identified people & their allies today & in recent years.

The physical & mental health problems that women go through coz of the hormonal fluctuations & sudden hormone floods, drops & deprivations we experience in the course of our menstrual cycles, during pregnancy, after childbirth, when weaning, during menopause & when aging & in our elderly years seem not to matter at all to most people who identify as & ally with trans people.

You are a sweetheart. But I have never seen or heard any trans-identified persons on any platform acknowledge the hormone issues that girls, women & their own mothers face. However, I have seen & heard many trans-identified people claim that if a person is female & "cis," then getting prescriptions for exogenous hormones is a piece of cake.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I do care what was done to menopausal women and I also care about the terrible side effects of SSRIs, the difficulty getting off them, and the fact they may impact generations when they do not perform better than placebos and are based on pseudoscience. I also care that the industry disproportionately damages women.

I cannot get over people critiquing the poor science and treatment around gender identity while propping up psychiatry. Furthermore these issues are not entirely separate.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Reminded me this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX51BdZ6Nws

It is third time I am hearing about something like that - one time it was HRT during hard-going menopause, and it is always women needing to wait years for a surgery that can save their lives or help to remove pain, while cosmetic surgery for transmen and transwomen is much higher priority than well-being of women, when the treatment is exactly the same.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Testosterone stopping does not have a discontinuation syndrome that can cause things like mania, brain zaps, or refractory depression.

Discontinued growth of the clitoris and less hair loss is not comparable. The depression is not caused by the discontinuation so much as no longer getting desired cosmetic effects. It’s closer to having fillers removed than an actual chemically needed treatment.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

I mean, I guess you can say in certain circumstances there won’t be major physical issues (assuming they haven’t had an oophorectomy and their body can still produce hormones naturally), but I don’t see how you can say their won’t be mental issues whether from missing physical changes or other reasons. If they have had an oophoretectomy, they need hormones of some kind to stay physically healthy too. You can still not like it and be honest about that I feel like.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I am being honest. The psychological distress is over cosmetic changes. It’s nothing like an organic depression, or a malfunctioning pancreas.

discontinuation is not dangerous the way benzodiazepine discontinuation is. If a woman has had an oophorectomy her hormone replacement therapy would not involve taking male doses of testosterone. It would require replacing her NECESSARY hormones.

Male doses of testosterone in females are not medically necessary. Cosmetic changes to ease unhappiness is not a medical necessity.

Their mental distress can be treated by means other than by testosterone if we stopped acting like self acceptance and rejection of gender is somehow a form of torture. People might respond to therapy if they aren’t sold the idea that transitioning is the only answer.

Hormones for transitioning are nothing like necessary medication.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 5 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 6 fun -  (23 children)

It’s totally different and exactly why I maintain that the average adult is not educated enough about their own biology or pharmacy to mess around with it.

This is why T requires a prescription. Those on the Ovarit thread are arguing trans men shouldn't get T at all.

Ssri discontinuation is a serious issue with measurable physical effects as well as psychological distress. It’s nothing like testosterone

But they take T to stay mentally healthy just like I take SSRIs to stay mentally healthy.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

So? Why do you constantly want us to answer for what people say on ovarit? You’ve been told we aren’t a hive mind monolith but still act as if we are.

They take testosterone to induce desired cosmetic effects claiming the cosmetic effects ease their mental distress. It’s absolutely nothing like inhibiting the reuptake of serotonin. This insistent misunderstanding is exactly why random adults are not qualified to decide that drugs are good for them just because they like the effects. Prescriptions handed out to every Jane, sally and Harriet are so far removed from a comprehension of what the prescription is doing to their body they might as well be on different planets.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 3 insightful - 8 fun3 insightful - 7 fun4 insightful - 8 fun -  (21 children)

So? Why do you constantly want us to answer for what people say on ovarit? You’ve been told we aren’t a hive mind monolith but still act as if we are.

GCs say they are not a hive mind but when there is a post for example like this where a trans man is stalking someone most of them jump in to say trans men should not have access to T. Granted, I know not all GCs are hivemind. Here is a comment from the thread:

This is obviously terrible but am I the only one confused as to why everyone is blaming testosterone for violent behaviour? Violence in TIFs if hardly common it is feels like baseless speculation to say HRT makes women violent. It also removes responsibility from violent men by suggesting that they have no choice but to be violent because its "in their nature" or because all men are somehow born violent. Violence is always a choice regardless of hormones.

That's exactly what I am thinking. Granted, the hive mind thing is probably just an Ovarit thing. s/GenderCritical called out Ovarit users when they wanted to ban all forms of plastic surgery. Some GCs say they don't like the tone on Ovarit. I do think Ovarit is mostly a hive mind, based on the threads I read there.

They take testosterone to induce desired cosmetic effects claiming the cosmetic effects ease their mental distress. It’s absolutely nothing like inhibiting the reputable of serotonin.

But we are all taking these medications for one very basic reason: to be mentally healthy.

Prescriptions handed out to every Jane, sally and Harriet are so far removed from a comprehension of what the prescription is doing to their body they might as well be on different planets.

This is why doctors should explain medications to their patients. Patients are responsible for understanding their condition, what the meds do and deciding if this is working for them.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

People sharing an opinion is not the same thing as a hive mind and it’s really disturbing that you think we act as one. We’re humans even when we disagree with your feelings. It’s disgusting to act like women you don’t like are incapable of individual thought or intelligence.

Reasons for taking it are nothing close to being similar drugs. You need to understand something, anything, about pharmacy if you’re gonna lecture about their supposed necessity.

Patients are responsible but they aren’t doctors. They don’t have the background to assume they totally understand complex biochemical processes. You’re not even being as responsible as you say patients are obliged to be because you don’t know what an SSRI is or does.

Patients get to decide what’s working for them? Lmao tell that to beta blockers, chemotherapy, insulin, or a billion other drugs.

These statements are precisely why I’m confident stating the average person has absolutely no business trying to decide what chemicals are best for them. Because this is the level of understanding held by advocates for it.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

GCs say they are not a hive mind but when there is a post for example like this where a trans man is stalking someone most of them jump in to say trans men should not have access to T.

The last time I was catching up with Ovarit there were 5K +/- members. More than 2500 at a time are jumping into a given thread to comment as you describe? Highly doubtful. There's been a fair range of opinion there since its launch. Maybe what you're describing is a routine response to topics by a core group of commenters interested in that topic.

[–]MarkTwainiac 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

trans men taking T to physically transition is not abusing T.

It's no different than me taking my anti-depressants, ADHD and blood pressure meds.

WTF?

How old are you that you are on all these drugs? At what age did you start them?

You seem to have no idea how any of these very different drugs work or how each on of them came to be on the market.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Genuinely frightened to see adults advocate so hard for the use of drugs with zero comprehension of pharmacy or what a necessary medication is.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (4 children)

I know how these drugs work and yes they were prescribed in consultation with a doctor by doing actual tests and these drugs have helped me immensely. Without my ADHD meds I would have no job because I wouldn't be able to concentrate at all and without the SSRIs I would be laying in bed all day.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I mean this as gently as possible but that’s not how the drugs work. That’s the effect they have. Twain is asking if you understand the drug mechanisms or their history.

Like, do you know what an SSRI is?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 3 insightful - 9 fun3 insightful - 8 fun4 insightful - 9 fun -  (2 children)

Yes it produces serotonin.

[–]MarkTwainiac 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Genderbender, the fact that you think an SSRI drug "produces serotonin" shows you don't understand. Such drugs do not produce serotonin, they inhibit/delay the uptake or re-absorption of serotonin in/by nerve cells.

The acronym SSRI stands for selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitor. If these drugs produced serotonin, they'd be know by the acronym SP, short for serotonin producer.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No. No it does not.