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[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (19 children)

While I agree that anecdotal evidence isn't great evidence there are some really common stories in the community. Eg the rigger tying up their stuffed animals.

but I don't think a biological predisposition would be enough to trigger a paraphilia all on its own

I mostly agree. But if we assume a genetic disposition exists and there is some threshold where any given paraphilia manifests, then some people may be so close to the threshold that seeing a related image [someone tied to a tree in the rigger/rope bunny example] may be enough to get them to explore their atypical sexual interests.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

But if we assume a genetic disposition exists and there is some threshold where any given paraphilia manifests, then some people may be so close to the threshold that seeing a related image [someone tied to a tree in the rigger/rope bunny example] may be enough to get them to explore their atypical sexual interests.

If that theory is true, wouldn't these atypical interests be much more common in the general populace given that gazillions of people had religious upbringings as children that meant we were routinely exposed to myriad images & stories of grotesque physical torture of humans and taught to look upon extreme suffering as saintly? Such as grisly images & tales of Christ being forced to wear a crown of thorns as he made his way - beaten, bloodied, humiliated - to Calvary, where he was then crucified. Of Saint Sebastian shot with arrows; Agatha of Sicily who was tortured with iron hooks, stretched on a rack, had her body parts burnt & her breasts torn off with pincers; Saint Lucy who plucked her own eyes out; Catherine of Alexandria who was imprisoned & scourged so that her blood ran in streams; medieval flagellants; and John the Baptist being beheaded and then his head being served on a platter.

A number of religious traditions are quite detailed in describing to children & adults the various kinds of suffering the sinful are bound to endure in hell and/or purgatory. Do you think this is related to people developing or exploring atypical sexual interests?

Have the paintings & replicas of paintings by artists like Hieronymus Bosch brought out people's inborn paraphilias and proclivities?

Accounts of many historical events have described humans torturing & abusing other humans in great detail...

I'm not being snide & snarky here. I think that religious & historical images & stories of physical torture & suffering does affect people exposed to them, particularly in childhood, in profound ways. I'm just not sure they lead to, or bring out, paraphilias.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (4 children)

You raise an interesting point. I personally think that the people whose baseline is this high are quite rare and consider them extreme cases. I also think that the people amount of people that are close enough to the threshold to develop a kink without major external influences is quite low. Maybe 7 to 10% of the population.

While it's true that martyrdom portraits suffering as saintly its also explicitly not sexual. Even more most religions are explicitly anti sex and someone exposed to these stories may be more likely to repress their sexuality and feel guilty if they have sexual thoughts from these stories. Context is important when looking at these stories. But I'm more speaking from experience as someone who is kinky and grew up in a Christian household, than from any hard data or conversation I had with other kinksters on the topic.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Even more most religions are explicitly anti sex and someone exposed to these stories may be more likely to repress their sexuality and feel guilty if they have sexual thoughts from these stories

I was raised Roman Catholic in the US in the 1960s. I'm not "kinky" - or at least I don't think I am - though in my life I have been let's say sexually adventurous & open-minded... But I was steeped in the kinds of religious imagery I mentioned above. And I perceived a definite erotic element to those stories & imagery. So did most of my friends, classmates & siblings who also grew up RC. As kids & young adults we talked about this a lot.

It's hard not to think of sex and to eroticize martyrdom when over every bed in your home hangs a crucifix showing the sculpted body of a nearly-naked long-haired man of 33, LOL. And when as a child you're forced to commit to memory descriptions of all the horrors of the flesh detailed in such books as Lives of the Saints.

Even more most religions are explicitly anti sex and someone exposed to these stories may be more likely to repress their sexuality and feel guilty if they have sexual thoughts from these stories

I'm not sure I buy your contention that "most religions are explicitly anti sex". The Roman Catholicism I was raised in was/is definitely not "explicitly anti sex"! Roman Catholicism is very pro-sex & pro-sexual pleasure so long as sex & sexual pleasure occur in the context of heterosexual marriage and is done with procreation in mind. (Or for the pleasure of pedophilic & sex abusing male clergy operating on the DL.)

Neither Judaism or Islam seem "anti sex" to me, either. They are pro-sex, so long as it's sex that gives males pleasure & allows them to father children & perpetuate male supremacy.

You say you

grew up in a Christian household

Can you be more specific? What kind of Christianity & in what country & era? I find that a lot of people who grew up in fundamentalist Christian sects in the era since the 1980s don't realize that their brand of Christianity is NOT representative of all Christianity globally or over time.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (2 children)

Sure. I grew up on a catholic household on the 90s/ 2000s in Germany. Early in my life my parents joined a catholic cult called regnum christ and I went through their kids organization NET and ECYD and went to their private school for a bit. Given that the cult has papal approval I assumed that it would at least be a decent indicator of general catholic upbringing.

I got confronted with hell at an early age and it took me till recently to get rid of the fear programmed into me. This has greatly impacted my sexuality in general and definetly colors my perspective and I'm grateful for yours.

Roman Catholicism is very pro-sex & pro-sexual pleasure so long as sex & sexual pleasure occur in the context of heterosexual marriage and is done with procreation in mind.

I agree, but I don't consider this stance sex positive. To use a bad analogy - cuz im bad at good ones - it's comparable to beeing salad positive but only Caesar salad in a glass bowl without dressing. Also if you do it any other way you're gonna be roasted alive forever and make your best friend really sad.

Both Judaism and Islam seem similarly restrictive to me. I assume our bar for sex positive is set in a different place.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thanks for sharing that info. Your upbringing sounds awful. I'd always heard that Regnum Christi was a weird Catholic sect/cult founded & led by a controversial cleric known for sex abuse who was widely criticized both within & outside RC circles.

I got confronted with hell at an early age too. I spent many a sleepless night as a young child worrying about the fate of all my loved ones who were unbaptised & not Catholics. I also worried a great deal about all the babies who died at birth that Catholics originally said went to Limbo, but who were written out of existence & the afterlife when the Catholic Church decided in the late 60s to relegate the idea of Limbo to the dustbin.

I am glad you were able to get rid of the fear programmed into you. For me, my siblings & other survivors of mid-20th century Catholic upbringings, it's still an ongoing process. Which is why we call ourselves recovering Catholics rather than lapsed ones. I have known many people raised Catholic who after not believing or practicing for decades reverted back to the superstitious beliefs of childhood upbringing when facing a major tragedy, a serious medical crisis or death. In my living will and all my medical forms about my wishes for end-of-life care, I say I am a "deathbed Catholic." Which means that just to be on the safe side, please when I am at risk of dying call a priest & get me last rites. Just in case the hogwash I had rammed down my throat as a kid is true after all.

I agree, but I don't consider this stance sex positive. To use a bad analogy - cuz im bad at good ones - it's comparable to beeing salad positive but only Caesar salad in a glass bowl without dressing. Also if you do it any other way you're gonna be roasted alive forever and make your best friend really sad.

But I never used the term "sex positive." You claimed that "most religions are explicitly anti sex." In response, I simply said

The Roman Catholicism I was raised in was/is definitely not "explicitly anti sex"! Roman Catholicism is very pro-sex & pro-sexual pleasure so long as sex & sexual pleasure occur in the context of heterosexual marriage and is done with procreation in mind. (Or for the pleasure of pedophilic & sex abusing male clergy operating on the DL.)

Neither Judaism or Islam seem "anti sex" to me, either. They are pro-sex, so long as it's sex that gives males pleasure & allows them to father children & perpetuate male supremacy.

I wouldn't use the term "sex positive" in discussions of religion or any other topic. "Sex positive" has negative connotations in my mind, as it's used to justify porn, prostitution & sex trafficking & slavery.

But the more important point you are overlooking here is that for all the many fucked up things that Catholicism teaches kids & taught people like you & me in times of yore, it remains a fact that redemption & forgiveness are at the core of RC dogma. According to Catholic teachings, no matter what you or I do or did, we will NOT be "roasted alive forever" so long as we confess our "sins" and repent prior to death.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for your response. I'm honestly happy, that you're able to find a way to deal with the damaging religous programming you have had to endure and sincerely hope you find happiness despite it.

I injected my own opinion into your comment and am sorry I did so. Im writing from my phone and have to memorize stuff and this happens sometimes. I personally wouldn't call the catholic stance pro sex either. For the reasons outlined before. It's to restrictive and controlling.

Regarding forgiveness. I'm not necessarily overlooking it as much as intentionally not considering it. The version of the catechism I had to memorize during my upbringing was quite specific that this "forgiveness" s is only granted to those that earnestly repent as in regret the sins they've committed and make an active commitment to improve in the future. Same with complete absolutions. Since these "sins" are controlling basic human instincts, especially in the case of homosexuality requiring a "sinner" to repent from them is cruel at best. So while I agree that redemption and forgiveness are core parts of catholic dogma the forgiveness of the rcc isn't as universal or loving as they like to portray outwards and imo just another way to control their members.

[–]worried19[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

I'm skeptical something as innocuous as that could trigger a full-blown paraphilia. But I did have two different people on Reddit tell me that one of their first "signs" of having kinks was watching Disney's freaking Jungle Book movie.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Precisely which movie version of Disney's Jungle Book do they cite? There have been half a dozen Disney JB movies since the late 1960s plus at least as many TV and video game spinoffs...I'd love to know which one is ostensibly linked to kinks.

[–]worried19[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

The Disney cartoon movie from 1967. It was something about the snake hypnotizing people. I remember thinking I ought to keep my future kids away from it in case it corrupts their sexuality.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Thank you for clarifying! I guess in the case of me, my siblings, peers and all our kids, the train has already left the station. Funny thing, though - I don't think any of us are on reddit kink subs. LOL

[–]worried19[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Ha, yeah, I admit I'm at a loss to understand how an innocent, non-sexual movie could cause little kids to be sexually aroused.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Gotta re-frame your locus of "sexual" from genitalia and sex and nekkedness to paraphilia. It's non-sexual to the non-paraphile.

I've also collected many anecdotes from people with sadomasochistic interests that Disney films were their first recognition that the concept in the film was interesting to them.

[–]worried19[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I guess it must happen, but it's so strange to me. I'm guessing the kids first had their innocence corrupted elsewhere because I don't think a regular movie could corrupt a child all on its own.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's erotic mis-learning or erotic learning. We don't know that much about it. Its evolutionary foundation in our species is probably due to concealed ovulation.

This is an excellent paper that touches on the topic a little bit:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/J-Bailey-4/publication/336818727_The_Poverty_of_Conditioning_Explanations_for_Sexual_Interests_Reply_to_Grey_2019/links/5dc45cf6299bf1a47b1f79a0/The-Poverty-of-Conditioning-Explanations-for-Sexual-Interests-Reply-to-Grey-2019.pdf

[–]worried19[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'll check it out. Thanks for the link.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (3 children)

What do you mean by full blown paraphilia? I'm not talking about paraphilic disorders. A paraphilia is simply a deviant sexual interest. And like any interest could be triggered by all kinds of related things.

[–]worried19[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I just meant a full-blown deviant sexual interest. Like bondage or masochism or something. I don't think an innocent non-sexual scene in a movie could cause that all on its own.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

Thanks for the answer. Would you allow me to rephrase my question: Can you give me an example for a deviant sexual interest that isn't "full blown" ?

[–]worried19[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm not sure. I was trying to differentiate between paraphiliac disorders and less extreme deviant sexual interests. I guess someone with a disorder is unable to get aroused by anything else. A person with a deviant sexual interest most likely would enjoy things unrelated to the kink or fetish, but still has a "full-blown" affinity for deviant stuff.

I suppose it's also possible to have mild deviant sexual interests. But I still don't think even the mild stuff could be caused solely by childhood exposure to non-sexual material.