All: How has the opposing position been most or least effective in their arguments?

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[–]MarkTwainiac 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Fleurista, hi! I agree that people on both sides can be hurtful and seem petty. I also think there are bullies & nasty people in both camps.

But do you think that when GC sometimes come across to you & others as blunt to the point of being "abrasive and hurtful," your perceptions might be colored by our sex and age? GC is widely seen as including a large number of female people who are middle-aged & older. Girls & women of all ages are expected to "be kind." But older women are expected to be motherly, soothing, placating, always trying to smooth ruffled feathers too.

I ask this as an older woman who has said things to you and some other posters here that have been interpreted as harsh and mean. My intent was never to be harsh and mean, but I know that's how my words have come across.

[–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Following this thought, can we admit that sometimes we're just weary of countering ill-informed nonsense? (Worse, ill-informed nonsense that's been routinely underscored by cancelling, doxxing, and death threats?)

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Oh Hi Mark! 😊 I'm sorry to take so long responding, but I wanted to digest this and think on it a bit because that's a really good question.

I can absolutely see why women like you may have even less patience for TRA, QT and gender ideology, and trying to put myself in your shoes I can totally get why older GC radical feminists would be super over it all (I mean, the GC radfem website is called Ovarit, so that level of frustration should be obvious). I'm sure you and other women like you are sick to death of repeating yourselves, particularly when you're constantly being met with hostility and closed-mindedness.

Personally, I began learning about GC at the same time I was communicating with GC people, and I really didn't have an idea of the kinds of people who are GC (other than mostly being women), so I was sort of expecting a not-so-warm welcome from all GC people--age never really came to mind. Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe I experience many of the same expectations of women, so I'm always aware of how women are supposed to act because I am expected to act the same way (at least in public, daily life). Maybe I was expecting less confrontation and less derision from GC women of all ages just because you are women? I'm still not really sure.

The most abrasive or hurtful thing, to me, is having my lived experiences flippantly dismissed as untrue or trivialized. I feel like maybe there is an assumption or expectation that trans or QT people wish to interact with GC in bad faith, which is how I feel like I was viewed (and maybe still am) when I first began interacting with GC people. I suppose I understand the suspicion, and I think I have my guard up a bit too now. But trans people aren't all the same and not all of us are products of this trans rights/gender ideology movement or 'trenders' or 'transbians' or fetishists. The regular GC people of this sub have been and are respectful towards me, generally, and I do really appreciate that as I can understand how fed up they are with trans people.

I don't feel like I can speak for other trans people beyond that, since we're all different and we experience this condition differently. Certainly take my views and opinions with a grain of salt if comparing to other trans peoples' 😅

I hope this isn't embarrassing, but I've noticed you changing the way you communicate, taking care to be respectful and rather warm. Or maybe it's just me! But I do appreciate that very, very much. You have every right in the world to call me a man, but you generally don't, which I notice and appreciate even if that's OK with me if you do. You're very conscientious, but based on our earlier interactions I wouldn't have expected us to ever be engaging in light, friendly and respectful ways--I've come to really enjoy talking to you. I never thought you or others would extend this level of kindness, but I'm so happy to be wrong!🙂

Obviously I went all over the place, but I hope (somehow) I answered your question!

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks Fleurista for responding. You answered my question just fine. I'm listening and taking what you say to heart.

People are surprising, aren't we? Which is one of the reasons I can't stand the attitude that so many people adopt, the one that says, in effect, Not gonna bother talking to you since I already know what you'll say/how you will react. For every person I've known in life whose reactions I thought I could predict ahead of time, there's been another one who showed me that I am not clairvoyant after all.

It's interesting that you think my communication style has changed. That might be the case. Then again, it might not be - or might not be to the extent you think. Fact is, I am rather incorrigible. I've always been criticized - and rightly so - for being too blunt & abrasive, and for saying aloud things that most people keep in the privacy of their own heads. I'm not diplomatic. I'm also annoyingly pedantic. Many in my life consider me to be a major pain the ass. My kids regularly read me the riot act over my big mouth & have told me many times they would much prefer that I STFU.

The other side of our dynamic might be that in our time on saidit you have changed in the kinds of assertions you make. My impression is that you used to make many more claims to having a female essence & childhood experiences that could justify your sense that you & I are of the same sex. I have been very impressed by your willingness to take pushback on these matters. And I am sorry that my pushback has come across as harsh & mean and has been hard to hear.

Also, it seems that in a short space of time you have made a sea change in how you view women like me. Now we're "people" in your eyes, LOL.

Seriously now, I have come to admire you greatly & to feel fond of you. I see you as a very generous-minded, kind, intelligent, good-humored young person who is trying to figure out life and your place in it. You and some other posters here have helped me curb my unfair inclination to lump all trans-identified persons of your sex into an undifferentiated misogynistic mass.

I have very much enjoyed our exchanges. I hope you know that even as I will push back at claims you & others might make that I disagree with, I really wish you well.

I also love sharing music videos with you!