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[–]BiologyIsReal 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Is that an admission that I took the third apart?

Oh, please. I meant the fact that supposely "confused" the paper you linked when the one I did. I still believe you lied. The title alone should had give you a clue it was a completely different paper.

Can't you read, dude? I never said Money and the others didn't think "gender identity" was the result of socialization. I explicitly said TRA were the ones who said it was innate. I said they both have the same definition of gender identity, they only differ in the origin. And I don't know what are you trying to acomplish "lecturing" me about intersex when I said from the beginning that I saw "gender identity" used in regards to them.

[–]SnowAssMan 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

It certainly sounded like you needed a lecture to me:

"Gender identity" is a transgenderism specific concept that cannot be scientifically proved, so I've no desire to start using it

Rejecting gender identity as a concept won't spite the trans cult as much as it'll make you seem uninformed. It's not necessary to reject gendered socialisation (which has been proven) in order to reject the feminine essence hypothesis (which has never been proven to exist).

[–]BiologyIsReal 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

What the hell are you talking about?! I NEVER said that women and men are not socialized differently. I just reject the concept of "gender identity". I don't care if how much you like it. Stop telling me what the hell I have to believe. You're just another man telling women what they need to do to fight against sexism and misogyny.

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Ironically someone who doesn't think gender identity exists is now engaging in identity politics.

If your belief that gender identity doesn't exist is based on nothing but your feelings then that's rather ironic too. You keep describing the evidence I have produced as a "belief" that I "like". Empiricism doesn't need to be liked or believed, only proven. Social identities exist, among them gender identity. It's like when MRAs insist that the gender pay gap doesn't exist – they either have to reject all pay gaps (racial, height, weight etc), or explain how gender is the only one that has remarkably managed to evade becoming a bias. So, do no social identities exist, or do they all exist except gender?

[–]BiologyIsReal 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

That’d depend on what you understand by identity politics. I’m not dismissing your opinions because you’re a man if that is what you think. That comment was more to do with your general attitude, i.e. you acting like you’re the only voice of reason here, your need of lecturing about how we need to accept the concept of “gender identity” and your comparison of TRA using this term with trans males appropriation of the word woman. And the fact that most GC people here and elsewhere are women because is women who are the most affected by TRA’s politics. Many men are too happy to use transgenderism to hide their misogyny. Other men don’t see what the big is deal or think this is what feminists deserve. The men who I see speaking out often against TRA usually have been affected by them in some way. I’ve no idea what you reason is, but it does feel like you enjoy “lecturing” “ignorant” women (I remind you, you were the one who said that GC are allergic to reading and often spread their ignorance). I may be wrong, but that is what it feels to me and why I said what I said.

“Gender identity” is an unfalsifiable concept because it can’t be externally determined. You depend on what other people say about their “gender identity”. That is why I compared it with the religious concept of souls in other threads. What there is plenty of evidence of, however, is sex. There is also evidence of the difference of expectations an treatment given to women and men by society. And sexism and misogyny and indeed based on sex.

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

You keep ironically demonstrating a high gender identity salience.

If gendered socialisation exists & gendered behavioural trends exist then gender identity exists. It's: socialisation = identity = behaviour. You have no reason to reject the identity step. Do none of the social identities exist, or do they all exist except for the ones that have arbitrarily earned your ire? I've asked this question a couple of times now, with no forthcoming answer.

[–]BiologyIsReal 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

You keep ironically demonstrating a high gender identity salience.

What the hell is that supposed to mean? That I argue like a woman or what? Look, if you're going to play armchair psychologist with me, at least make it entertaining and justify that claim. Because, really, yes, you clearly show a female "gender identity", therefore I am right it's not the winning argument you seem to think it is...

You keep equating socialization with "gender identity" when even the people you quote undestand that those two need to be separated concepts. If you think anyone raised as a girl (whether or not they are female) has a female "gender identity" regardless of outcome because they were raised that way, then this theory becomes a tautology and, as such, unfalsifiable. In other words, it's circular logic.

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

You're hyper-aware of being female & me being male, bc you keep mentioning it, regardless of relevancy. Heightened awareness of your gender identity = increased gender identity salience. Just pretend it says "sex identity", if that makes you feel better.

Anyway, do none of the social identities exist? Or do they all exist except for gender identity? Is 'identity salience' totally made up as well, or only when it's 'gender identity salience'?

[–]BiologyIsReal 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I'm not bringing up my "gender identity" or my "sex identity", but my SEX. And I don't know what is so odd about bringing up our sexes in a discussion about sex. I could bring up other aspects of myself like my nationality, social class, education level, religion, hobbies, family, etcetera, but I don't think they're very relevant right now. And your sex is the only thing I know for sure about you.

I think you're overstimating how much I think in terms of identity, but if you insist... yeah, my sex is part of my identity. I think sex is really the relevant part.

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I could bring up other aspects of myself like my nationality...

Replace "myself" with: my identity. Do you have a national identity? What about a class identity?

If socialisation can be gendered, if behaviour can be gendered, can identity be gendered?