QT: How is the concept of a "gender identity" not sexist?

submitted by Penultimate_Penance from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (23 children)

My understanding of gender identity comes from sociology, specifically social identity theory, however, John Money's gender identity is consistent with sociology's. Feminine essence theory (what TRAs actually men when they say gender identity) & gender identity are opposites. One is the nature side of the debate, the other is the nurture side.

Money's experiment was bound to fail

Why? It's been done since, properly, & hasn't failed.

For example, males with CAIS view themselves as women

OMFG, that's perfectly consistent with what I'm saying though. They look female & as a result were brought up that way. I cited my source in my first comment here. I'm unaware of a source that contradicts it.

[–]BiologyIsReal 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

I already explained why. It's not technoligically possible to change someone's sex. Body changes caused by exogenous hormones and surgeries are merely cosmetic rather than an actual sex change. As such, children who are raised as the opposite sex will eventually wonder why they are diferent from other children or why they need to take hormones. I did included examples of genetical males whith DSDs that are often raised as girls. You focused on males with CAIS while ignoring males with 5 alfa reductase deficience. Here are some relevant links (disclaimer: I don't endorse the authors of the second link's suggestion of using "puberty blockers"):

Gender Change in 46,XY Persons with 5α-Reductase-2Deficiency and 17β-HydroxysteroidDehydrogenase-3 Deficiency

Gender identity, gender assignment and reassignment in individuals with disorders of sex development: a major of dilemma

Gender identity disorder (GID) in adolescents and adults with differences of sex development (DSD): A systematic review and meta-analysis

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

This first link says the opposite of what you're claiming it says.

[–]BiologyIsReal 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

Can you be more specific? The first paper clearly says:

Gender role changes were reported in 56–63% of cases with 5α-RD-2 and 39–64% of cases with 17β-HSD-3 who were raised as girls. The changes were usually made in adolescence and early adulthood.

I guess you may be refering to this part:

In these two syndromes, the degree of external genital masculinization at birth does not seem to be related to gender role changes in a systematic way.

But I said nothing about the phenotype at birth of males with 5a-RD-2 raised as girls. I said many of them adopt a male identity after their bodies get virilized at puberty.

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

Most "persist". Your own source (which is the same one I first posted in my first comment) says so:

"of the female- assigned patients of childhood age, 69% (including those with possible gender dysphoria) or 62% (excluding those) were living as females, of those of adolescent age 91% (including those with possible gender dysphoria) or 68% (excluding those), of those of adult age 65% or 47%, and of those whose age could not be categorized 100%, altogether across all ages 78% or 65%"

The study also mentions that the biggest factor is whether the sex is disclosed to the child early on (thereby failing to adequately socialise it female).

[–]BiologyIsReal 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

What are you talking about?!! Those are not the numbers mentioned in the paper of 5α-RD-2 and 17β-HSD-3! And this paper is not the one you linked!

These are the links I posted:

Gender Change in 46,XY Persons with 5α-Reductase-2Deficiency and 17β-HydroxysteroidDehydrogenase-3 Deficiency

Gender identity, gender assignment and reassignment in individuals with disorders of sex development: a major of dilemma

Gender identity disorder (GID) in adolescents and adults with differences of sex development (DSD): A systematic review and meta-analysis

And this is the link you posted in your first comment:

Gender Identity Outcome in Female-Raised 46,XY Persons with Penile Agenesis, Cloacal Exstrophy of the Bladder, or Penile Ablation

Edit: format and added links.

[–]SnowAssMan 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

I mistook your link for the same as mine, because the links look similar & a cursory glance of the paper made it look the same to me.

"Our review shows that the number of gender role changes reported on in the literature is considerable and certainly higher than in other intersex conditions [...] However, as adults, a significant number of affected individuals still lived in the female role."

"It should be considered that a small minority of DSDs feels the need to change gender later in life"

From the above quotes it seems like their results are in the minority, that my link is more representative. The third link is on gender dysphoria in intersex people due to their bodies not aligning with one sex. The better their bodies align with one o the two sexes, the less common gender dysphoria is. I don't know what the relevance of that one was.

[–]BiologyIsReal 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Do you even understand they are completely different condition?!!! Whatever, I'm tired of arguing with you. Keep clinging to your ideas that you can turn men into women.

[–]SnowAssMan 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

They all belong under the same umbrella of intersex, otherwise your studies wouldn't mention the fact that they are in the minority with their findings. A man is an adult human male. Sex can't be changed. I never once said, let alone clung to the idea that men can be turned into women.

You've made it pretty clear at this point that you're not misunderstanding what I'm saying. Your misinterpretations are conscious, deliberate. I can see why you call me a liar. It's deflection. You habitually misrepresent what I'm saying (i.e. you lie), then you fail to address any of the points I made (lies by omission). Instead of it ending there, with you levying all sorts of accusations at me, you add "liar" to the concoction, making you not just a liar, but a hypocrite to boot. Am I calling you names, or calling you out?

[–]BiologyIsReal 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

YOU WAS THE FIRST ONE IMPLYING I WAS LIAR WHEN YOU SAID THE PAPER I LINKED WAS THE SAME AS THE ONE YOU DID! AND THEN YOU DOUBLED DOWN WITH THE LIES BY TRYING TO MAKE ME BELIEVE YOU JUST CONFUSED THEM! IT'S ABSURD YOU GET MAD FOR BEING CALLED A LIAR YOURSELF.

As for the turning men into women, obviously I dind't meant it literally. It was a reference to your beloved concept of "gender identity". It's called context, ever heard about it?

By the way, how does 5 alfa reductase deficiency fits into the blank slate theory?

I take nothing back about what I said. You was the one who started with the condescending actitude and the lies.