QT: How is the concept of a "gender identity" not sexist?

submitted by Penultimate_Penance from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

You don't address any of the issues I have raised. You just keep moving the goal posts and introducing new topics.

I've never suggested humans don't have a culture or that we aren't products of culture! I have objected to your simplistic portrayals of all cultures as equally, uniformly sexist monocultures with no nuance, gradations or contradictions. I have questioned your insistence on the much-debunked idea that all human beings are "blank slates." And I have objected to your portrayal of all people as nothing but passive absorbers of the culture they were raised with & live in, and your view that all parents are equally sexist authoritarians whose main goal is raising their own kids according to sex stereotypes & inculcating them with sexist beliefs.

What's the difference between cultural identity & gender identity that makes gender identity so implausible to you? Actually, ... thinking about it, you probably would argue that you don't have a cultural identity.

Please don't put words in my mouth. You are coming off as incredibly arrogant. You can't read my mind. I am perfectly willing to discuss such topics as cultural identity, ethnic identity, national identity, religious identity, regional identity, class identity and so on. But those are very different topics to gender identity. And gender identity is the topic here.

[–]SnowAssMan 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

You keep reinterpreting what I'm saying, by removing any nuance to make me sound ridiculous. I specifically said:

We're all sexist, only different in degrees of sexism

& this:

Gender identity is like cultural identity, except it isn't as multi-dimensional, because there are only two options with varying degrees of emphasis on conformity to them.

Your response:

I have objected to your simplistic portrayals of all cultures as equally, uniformly sexist monocultures with no nuance, gradations or contradictions.

Do you honestly think that yours is a fair representation of what I've been saying? "Degrees" is a synonym of "gradations".

I am perfectly willing to discuss such topics as cultural identity, ethnic identity, national identity, religious identity, regional identity, class identity and so on. But those are very different topics to gender identity.

I can only repeat myself. Gender identity is just like cultural identity, except there's only two of them. How can class identify be a thing, but somehow gender identity isn't? That seems totally inconsistent. What is stopping gender identity from being like class, nationality, ethnicity identities?

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

What is stopping gender identity from being like class, nationality, ethnicity identities?

Everyone has a socioeconomic status based on their own or their family or household income, level of wealth & accumulated assets, or lack thereof. Everyone was born in a place on earth that can be found on a map and is legally defined as a nation or territory. Some people end up stateless, but even they were born in a land/on land that exists in material fact and the precise spot can be located by longitude & latitude. Everyone has parents and a family lineage and ancestors who started out in one part of the world or another & whose genes & customs have been passed on, and therefore an ethnicity.

But not everyone has a gender identity!

Gender identity is like religion. Just because many people believe in religion & have a religious identity doesn't mean everyone does.

Last year or so, Ray Blanchard - or maybe it was Ken Zucker - pointed out on Twitter that most "normal" people do not have a gender identity. We have an awareness that we are male or female, but this is just one of the many facts & beliefs about ourselves that is incorporated into our overall concept of self. It's not the linchpin of our entire sense of self. The only people who've traditionally had a gender identity are those who have an issue with their sex and wish they were the opposite sex, or of no sex.

But nowadays, a psychological phenomenon once seen in a teensy-tiny proportion of the population is being assumed to be universal amongst all humans. I have no problem with you & others saying you/they have a gender identity. My issue is with you & others insisting that everyone has one. And with you telling me I have a gender identity whether I like it or not, and that I have no choice in the matter.

[–]SnowAssMan 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Your socioeconomic status is the catalyst of your class identity, just as your sex is the catalyst of your gender identity. Most people aren't even aware of their class, especially if they're American, so not being aware of your gender identity doesn't dispute its existence. If everyone has a socioeconomic status then everyone has a class identity, if everyone has a sex then everyone has a gender identity.

You never bothered explaining how all these other identities can exist, but randomly when it comes to gender, no such identity exists.

The only people who've traditionally had a gender identity are those who have an issue with their sex and wish they were the opposite sex, or of no sex.

That's called cross-gender identification: https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=%22cross+gender+identification%22&btnG=

vs. gender identity: https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=%22gender+identity%22+-trans+-dysphoria+&btnG=

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You never bothered explaining how all these other identities can exist, but randomly when it comes to gender, no such identity exists.

I did not say "all these other identities" exist. I said certain facts about each of us exist. Nowhere did I mention the word "identity":

Everyone has a socioeconomic status based on their own or their family or household income, level of wealth & accumulated assets, or lack thereof. Everyone was born in a place on earth that can be found on a map and is legally defined as a nation or territory. Some people end up stateless, but even they were born in a land/on land that exists in material fact and the precise spot can be located by longitude & latitude. Everyone has parents and a family lineage and ancestors who started out in one part of the world or another & whose genes & customs have been passed on, and therefore an ethnicity.

The extent to which people emphasize elements like class/wealth, nationality/place of origin, ethnicity in their self-concepts varies greatly across cultures and historical periods and amongst individuals in the same culture and period. Not everyone constructs their sense of self out of "identities" or identity labels in the way you keep insisting.

I have a sex, but I do not have a gender identity. Just like I have an age, but not an age identity.

Gender = sex stereotypes of masculinity/femininity. Gender is not a lens through which I see myself, nor a scale via which I appraise myself.

[–]SnowAssMan 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I did not say "all these other identities" exist. I said certain facts about each of us exist. Nowhere did I mention the word "identity":

Bloody hell. I asked you: what is stopping gender identity from being like class, nationality, ethnicity identities? To which you said all this:

Everyone has a socioeconomic status based on their own or their family or household income, level of wealth & accumulated assets, or lack thereof. Everyone was born in a place on earth that can be found on a map and is legally defined as a nation or territory. Some people end up stateless, but even they were born in a land/on land that exists in material fact and the precise spot can be located by longitude & latitude. Everyone has parents and a family lineage and ancestors who started out in one part of the world or another & whose genes & customs have been passed on, and therefore an ethnicity.

You've also said this, after I suggested that you probably don't believe in cultural identity:

Please don't put words in my mouth. You are coming off as incredibly arrogant. You can't read my mind. I am perfectly willing to discuss such topics as cultural identity, ethnic identity, national identity, religious identity, regional identity, class identity and so on. But those are very different topics to gender identity. And gender identity is the topic here.

So which is it? Does cultural identity exist, or not? You seem to be having trouble deciding. And if cultural identity exists, insofar as, we are, in your words: "products of culture", then how is it that we all have cultural identities, but not gender identities?

I have a sex, but I do not have a gender identity. Just like I have an age, but not an age identity.

False equivalence, your age keeps changing. Do you think you have no social identities (identities you share with others)?

Not everyone constructs their sense of self out of "identities" or identity labels in the way you keep insisting.

Then how come female role models will improve girl's performance, while male role models fail to do the same? It's obviously something we are unconsciously aware of.

What accounts for men & women's gendered behavioural trends? Why are there certain behaviours & interests generally shared by women, but not by men? Are these differences biologically determined? Please don misinterpret that as meaning that all women are uniform & opposite to all men. I'm talking about patterns again, you know, patterns? You know, like trends. Like fashion. Today, women wear those hideous high-waisted trousers/skirts/bottoms – it's a fashion trend. Do they all wear it all the time? Seemingly yes, but exceptions still exist. But remember, exceptions don't disqualify trends in any way.