QT: How is the concept of a "gender identity" not sexist?

submitted by Penultimate_Penance from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]SnowAssMan 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (28 children)

It's just the nurture half of the nature vs. nurture debate. I didn't make it up. See my citations.

The trans cult's modus operandi is to appropriate terms & change all their definitions to: cross-gender self-identification. Gender, gender identity, boy, girl, man, woman, even male & female have all be appropriated & re-defined as all referring to cross-gender self-identification. 'Sex' will probably be next.

[–]BiologyIsReal 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

Yeah, appropriation is TRA's modus operandi, but I don't think that is the case for the term "gender identity". If I'm not mistaken it was the infamous John Money who coined this term to explain transsexualism and justify the "sex change" of babies with certain DSDs. And I've only seen the term "gender identity" in the contex of intersex and transgenderism/transsexualism. I think Money said that everyone have a "gender identity", but most people through the world and human history didn't/don't think about this stuff that much. We have known we have a sex for millennia and humans have prescribed certain roles for each sex, but it's only recently that some are saying that sex is a spectrum, that you can change sex or that "gender identity" should be prioritized over sex. Until some year ago, for me gender only belonged to grammar. "Gender identity" is a transgenderism specific concept that cannot be scientifically proved, so I've no desire to start using it.

[–]SnowAssMan 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

The trans cult says the opposite. They reject John Money for being an espouser of the socialisation of gender identity. He is infamous for trying to re-socialise Reimer. They believe his failure to re-socialise Reimer proves gender identity is innate, when the real reason he failed is because he just sexually abused a 2 year old under the guise of female socialisation.

Boys who have been socialised as girls from birth almost always continue identifying as women even after the truth is known to them.

I've known about gender identity since before the trans thing blew up, so it doesn't stem from them & it's not a synonym for 'feminine essence theory'. They just want their dumb biologically-determined hypothesis to sound more legitimate by appropriating the term for the socially-determined theory.

[–]BiologyIsReal 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

Just because TRA have adapted the concept more to their liking, it doesn't change the fact that it was John Money who coined the term "gender identity". Tough, if you know of someone who used the term before him, I'd be interested to hear about it.

Even putting aside the medical and sexual abuse of David Reimer, Money's experiment was bound to fail. First of all, an experiment with a sample of just one person has very low statistic value even if you're using his twin as control. Also, he was bound to find the truth sooner or later. He should notice eventually that he was not like other girls. Like, for example, how would he explain his lack of menarch and his parent's lack of worry about it?

Boys who have been socialised as girls from birth almost always continue identifying as women even after the truth is known to them.

I'm not sure if that is the case. As far as I read about peopple with DSDs, it seems like their self-identification is usually consistent with their phenotype. For example, males with CAIS view themselves as women. Males with PAIS tend to report more unsatisfying experiences whether they are raised as girls or as boys. Males with 5 alfa reductase deficience tend to view temselves as men; even more, many of the males who are mistaken and raised as girls adopt a male identity at puberty when their bodies get virilized by the increase in testosterone.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Just because TRA have adapted the concept more to their liking, it doesn't change the fact that it was John Money who coined the term "gender identity". Tough, if you know of someone who used the term before him, I'd be interested to hear about it.

Robert Stoller.

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (23 children)

My understanding of gender identity comes from sociology, specifically social identity theory, however, John Money's gender identity is consistent with sociology's. Feminine essence theory (what TRAs actually men when they say gender identity) & gender identity are opposites. One is the nature side of the debate, the other is the nurture side.

Money's experiment was bound to fail

Why? It's been done since, properly, & hasn't failed.

For example, males with CAIS view themselves as women

OMFG, that's perfectly consistent with what I'm saying though. They look female & as a result were brought up that way. I cited my source in my first comment here. I'm unaware of a source that contradicts it.

[–]BiologyIsReal 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

I already explained why. It's not technoligically possible to change someone's sex. Body changes caused by exogenous hormones and surgeries are merely cosmetic rather than an actual sex change. As such, children who are raised as the opposite sex will eventually wonder why they are diferent from other children or why they need to take hormones. I did included examples of genetical males whith DSDs that are often raised as girls. You focused on males with CAIS while ignoring males with 5 alfa reductase deficience. Here are some relevant links (disclaimer: I don't endorse the authors of the second link's suggestion of using "puberty blockers"):

Gender Change in 46,XY Persons with 5α-Reductase-2Deficiency and 17β-HydroxysteroidDehydrogenase-3 Deficiency

Gender identity, gender assignment and reassignment in individuals with disorders of sex development: a major of dilemma

Gender identity disorder (GID) in adolescents and adults with differences of sex development (DSD): A systematic review and meta-analysis

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

This first link says the opposite of what you're claiming it says.

[–]BiologyIsReal 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

Can you be more specific? The first paper clearly says:

Gender role changes were reported in 56–63% of cases with 5α-RD-2 and 39–64% of cases with 17β-HSD-3 who were raised as girls. The changes were usually made in adolescence and early adulthood.

I guess you may be refering to this part:

In these two syndromes, the degree of external genital masculinization at birth does not seem to be related to gender role changes in a systematic way.

But I said nothing about the phenotype at birth of males with 5a-RD-2 raised as girls. I said many of them adopt a male identity after their bodies get virilized at puberty.

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

Most "persist". Your own source (which is the same one I first posted in my first comment) says so:

"of the female- assigned patients of childhood age, 69% (including those with possible gender dysphoria) or 62% (excluding those) were living as females, of those of adolescent age 91% (including those with possible gender dysphoria) or 68% (excluding those), of those of adult age 65% or 47%, and of those whose age could not be categorized 100%, altogether across all ages 78% or 65%"

The study also mentions that the biggest factor is whether the sex is disclosed to the child early on (thereby failing to adequately socialise it female).

[–]BiologyIsReal 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

What are you talking about?!! Those are not the numbers mentioned in the paper of 5α-RD-2 and 17β-HSD-3! And this paper is not the one you linked!

These are the links I posted:

Gender Change in 46,XY Persons with 5α-Reductase-2Deficiency and 17β-HydroxysteroidDehydrogenase-3 Deficiency

Gender identity, gender assignment and reassignment in individuals with disorders of sex development: a major of dilemma

Gender identity disorder (GID) in adolescents and adults with differences of sex development (DSD): A systematic review and meta-analysis

And this is the link you posted in your first comment:

Gender Identity Outcome in Female-Raised 46,XY Persons with Penile Agenesis, Cloacal Exstrophy of the Bladder, or Penile Ablation

Edit: format and added links.