QT: How is the concept of a "gender identity" not sexist?

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[–]SnowAssMan 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (34 children)

Of course everyone is an individual, but culture exists. Not everyone who shares a culture is the same, but they all share a culture in common. Gender identity is like culture. Saying you don't have a gender identity, is like saying you don't have a culture. There is no such thing as a human being without a culture (except for a feral child maybe, or a recluse, or a child who travelled a lot with international parents).

Sexism is an ism because it's systemic. We all have the same biases, including parents. Parents know their child's sex & are biased accordingly. It colours their upbringing style. For instance, parents are more critical of their female infants' crawling abilities than their male ones. There are countless things like that which will obviously affect the child, especially when half the population is treated one way & the other half another way.

If we were all unique individuals then a series like Harry Potter would only appeal to 1 person, not en masse (with mostly female hardcore fans).

The same way you can't choose your culture is the same way you can't choose your gender identity. Cross-gender self-identification doesn't undo socialisation, otherwise all the transgender sex offenders would be female instead of male.

[–]MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

Not everyone who shares a culture is the same, but they all share a culture in common. Gender identity is like culture. Saying you don't have a gender identity, is like saying you don't have a culture.

This is nonsense. We are not all just sponges for culture. Some people absorb all the cultural messages they are exposed to without questioning them; other people question from an early age.

Moreover, not all cultures are monocultures. Most are not. Yet even in monocultures there is not necessarily total uniformity, conformity & sameness from house to house, or from one region to the next.

The cultural milieu I was raised in was Roman Catholic. I went to Catholic school, was fed a daily diet of dogma. I didn't believe in most of the dogma as a kid even when it was being shoved down my throat. I don't believe in it now. None of my siblings and viritually none of the kids I attended Catholic school with grew up to be devout practicing Catholics.

The cultural milieu I was raised in was also multifaceted. Staying on the religion angle only: Although I was raised Roman Catholic, and my parents were both observant RCs, I grew up with many friends and family friends of different religions. One of my uncles had studied to become a Catholic priest but later went to SE Asia, converted to Buddhism & married a Buddhist woman. Another uncle who was basically my second father was an atheist. Growing up, I spent a lot of time hanging out with and often in the homes of Jewish & Protestant friends. Some of my Jewish friends were extremely religious, kept kosher, strictly observed the sabbath; others were far less observant. Also knew some Hindus. The next door neighbors on side of my childhood home were of eastern European Jewish ethnic heritage but were prominent atheists who were also socialists and raised their kids to be "red diaper babies."

The long and short of it is, although the culture I was raised in was strictly Roman Catholic at the very same time it was characterized by pluralism, tolerance and diversity. Even thought my parents were strict RCs, they also were intellectuals who disagreed with one another on many topics and encouraged critical thought in their kids. In my family, arguing over religion, politics & all sorts of cultural matters was part of everyday life. I learned from an early age that different families have different beliefs/cultures, eat different foods, go about things in different ways, etc - and that within each family or household individual members will have different beliefs to one another.

We all have the same biases, including parents. Parents know their child's sex & are biased accordingly.

No, not all people have the same biases. All people are not equally sexist. Parents are not all equally into imposing sex stereotypes on their children. The people who live in the next house or apartment to yours might have very different views.

Families can act as conduits for the larger culture, or bulwarks against it.

Some people respond to sexism and sexist stereotypes by embracing and eroticizing them. Some people respond to sexism & sex stereotyping by challenging & rejecting them. There are many posters on this very sub whose responses to the sexism we/they were exposed to growing up & face every day are totally different.

Moreover, as people age and they get more life experience, our views and beliefs often change too. Some people become more sexist with age, some people less so.

The same way you can't choose your culture is the same way you can't choose your gender identity.

I am not saying that we can choose the culture we grow up in or live in. I am saying that a) not everyone lives in a monoculture and b) not everyone is a passive recipient of culture who simply swallows all the beliefs & biases fed to them. Cultures are multifaceted, multi-dimensional, often full of contradictions and given to change over time. Even in places where there's a state religion and culture is imposed from on high, like in Iran, you will find that in the privacy of people's homes there is diversity of opinion and customs.

you can't choose your gender identity.

Please stop telling me that I have a gender identity and that I cannot say or choose otherwise. That's not debating. That's dictating to me that because you believe in something, then I must believe in it too.

[–]SnowAssMan 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (32 children)

How does any of that erase culture? Gender identity is like cultural identity, except it isn't as multi-dimensional, because there are only two options with varying degrees of emphasis on conformity to them. Why is it that girls do better on maths exams if, shortly before it starts, they are introduced to a female mathematician? How can she act as a better role model for girls, than a male one could?

It's called implicit bias for a reason. We're all sexist, only different in degrees of sexism. We don't notice our sexist tendencies. That's why a lot of studies on sexist implicit bias have to be double-blind studies in order to actually record the bias accurately, because the examiners share the implicit biases with the participants!

If I said you have a cultural identity, I doubt you'd vigorously dispute it. What's the difference between cultural identity & gender identity that makes gender identity so implausible to you? Actually, ... thinking about it, you probably would argue that you don't have a cultural identity.

If you're a young, budding director in the US, people tell you that you'll be the next Spielberg (the hack lol), while in France the same talent in a young person would be likened to Goddard (someone who pushed the boundaries). French directors end up being more creative than directors from other cultures, because they had a superior role model.

[–]BiologyIsReal 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

Honestly, the more I read you, the more I think you're mixing up or maybe combining the TRA's concept of "gender identity" with the feminist's concept of gender.

[–]SnowAssMan 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

Gender is masculinity & femininity. Gender identity is what Simone de Beauvoir was talking about when she said "one is not born but becomes a woman":

"That formula [one is not born but made a woman] is the basis of all my theories & it’s meaning is very simple: that being a woman is not a natural fact. It’s a result of a certain history. There is no biological or psychological destiny that defines a woman as such. She is the product of a history, of civilisation, first of all, which has resulted in her current status. And secondary for each individual woman of her personal history in particular, that of her childhood. This determines her as a woman, creates in her something which is not at all innate, or an essence, something which has been called the “eternal feminine”, or femininity. The more we study the psychology of children the deeper we delve, the more evident it becomes that baby girls are manufactured to become women […] Long before a child is conscious, the way it is breastfed, or held, or rocked etc. inscribes in its body what might later appear a destiny”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3u1A0Mrjjw

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Gender is masculinity & femininity. Gender identity is what Simone de Beauvoir was talking about when she said "one is not born but becomes a woman":

There's the sleight of hand. You start off speaking of gender in your first sentence. And in that sentence you describe it accurately. But in the next breath you suddenly leap to gender identity.

What I & others are trying to tell you is that not everyone raised according to norms & codes of masculinity & femininity - gender - has a gender identity the way you keep insisting everyone does.

[–]SnowAssMan 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The reply you're replying to was to BiologyIsReal who said:

Honestly, the more I read you, the more I think you're mixing up or maybe combining the TRA's concept of "gender identity" with the feminist's concept of gender.

So, I was explaining what I understood as the difference between gender & gender identity to be, in order to prove that I understand the difference. No sleight of hand. Gender is masculinity & femininity. Gender identity is determined by gendered socialisation. I don't believe that gendered behavioural trends are biologically determined. Do you?

[–]Juniperius 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

This quote means that femininity - womanhood, in the terminology she uses - is a trauma, a stunting, not an identity. Making a girl into a woman is like making a tree into a bonsai. Does a bonsai tree have an identity as a bonsai? No, it has just been tortured all its life to shape it into what somebody with power over it thinks is beautiful.

[–]SnowAssMan 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

Even when she said "Long before a child is conscious, the way it is breastfed, or held, or rocked etc. inscribes in its body what might later appear a destiny" – because it sound awfully like she is talking about gendered socialisation here.

Gender identity is only an identity insofar as ethnic or national identities are identities. It's not something that can be consented to. It's also not something you can change.

We shouldn't allow the trans cult to hijack it's meaning so that they have a valid-sounding term for their feminine essence theory.

[–]BiologyIsReal 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

It seems like you're using "gender identity" as a shorthand for gendered socialization, but I've not seen anyone else calling such socialization as "gender identity". And it certainly this is not how TRA defines the term. They can keep the term for what I care. Honestly, I don't even like the word gender because it has only made things more confusing as everyone mean something different by it.

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (23 children)

It seems like you're using "gender identity" as a shorthand for gendered socialization

What else determines a social identity other than socialisation? What are you using it as a shorthand for?

but I've not seen anyone else calling such socialization as "gender identity".

Yes, you have. Check the top comment again, or do a Google Scholar search for gender identity, you probably have to exclude 'trans' & 'dysphoria' from the search to reduce the amount of trans spam in your results. You'll get hundreds of thousands of results.

And it certainly this is not how TRA defines the term.

They use all terms incorrectly. Every term they use is in reference to & reverence of their feminine essence theory.

They can keep the term for what I care.

Then they should keep woman too. They can also keep Beauvoir's quote that Jenner appropriated & the feminist movement as a whole, as well. Who cares what they erase in order to define their gender spirits into existence.

Honestly, I don't even like the word gender because it has only made things more confusing as everyone mean something different by it.

Really? Is "unisex" also "confusing" to you, since "everyone means something different by it"? Unisex toilets means toilets for both sexes, while unisex clothing means clothing that is neither masculine nor feminine. So confusing & deserving of being disliked as a result. What about the word feminine? You can have feminine features, or a feminine figure – but those things aren't construct! That's biology! How cOnFuSiNg. If only exceptions never existed! If only context never mattered!

[–]BiologyIsReal 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

You can quit your condescending tone, dude. I insist, they can keep the term "gender identity", which was associated with transsexualism from the beginning. Why would I want to reclaim a term made up by sexist men like Robert Stoller and/or John Money?

This wikipedia article you linked talks about gendered socialization and it says that this socialization creates the "gender identity" of an individual. "Gender identity" is defined as this:

By the time children reach the age of three, many will have acquired a firm sense of themselves as male or female, a gender identity that remains throughout life. In addition, many pre-schoolers develop a firm awareness of gender stereotypes, insisting that certain activities or items of clothing are not for girls and others not for boys. Yet gender identity does not automatically follow from biological sex.

This sounds a lot like what TRAs say to me... The only difference being that these scholars don't think "gender identity" is innate.

As for my dislike of the word gender, it's not that I personally find the term confusing, but TRA are taking full advantage of the confusion caused by people meaning different things by it. For feminists gender is about the societal expectations of each sex, for TRA is "gender identity", for linguists and speakers of gendered languages is a grammar category, and for many other people is the biological category of sex. Moreover, I think talking about gender helps to hide the fact that sexism and misogyny are sex based. For that reaon, I prefer talking about sex roles or sex stereotypes. Also, I really don't understand English speakers's aversion to the word sex. In Spanish, sexo (sex) means both the biological category and the sexual act too and nobody have a problem with it.

By the way, are you going to say anything about the fact you lied about the paper about 5α-reductase-2 deficiency and 17β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase-3 deficiency that I posted yesterday? Or are you going to pretend these guys don't exist because they challenge your theory?

[–]BiologyIsReal 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Did Simone de Beauvoir ever used the term "gender identity"? I'll confess I'm not well-read in feminist theory or philosophy, which is why I usually stick to biology. However, to me in this paragraph she is talking about gender roles, not "gender identity". It's late here, so I'll watch the video later.