QT: How is the concept of a "gender identity" not sexist?

submitted by Penultimate_Penance from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]MarkTwainiac 17 insightful - 5 fun17 insightful - 4 fun18 insightful - 5 fun -  (45 children)

I see myself as female, and would see myself as female regardless of my birth sex.

How can you be so certain? It's like saying that I see myself as American-born because the US is where my mother gave birth to me, and I would still see myself as American-born even if I'd actually been born in Bolivia, Russia or Japan. Or that I see myself as "white" and of northern European heritage coz of my coloring, certain physical characteristics & family history, and I'd still see myself in exactly the same way even if I was black and of East African heritage or Asian of Korean heritage.

Your conviction that you have a fixed, immutable female "gender identity" that would remain in place even if your sex were male suggests that you see "gender identity" as a spiritual essence that exists entirely apart from your physical body and will outlive your body after death. In other words, a soul.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (44 children)

I am certain. If I was born male, I would transition via hormones and surgery, because being male would cause me dysphoria. Yes, gender identity is somewhat of a spiritual essence, and I am in essence, a female. I'm lucky I was born female, so I don't need to transition.

[–]MarkTwainiac 14 insightful - 3 fun14 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Do you think your female spiritual essence existed before you, and will continue on after you die?

Can you explain how/when during your development your female spiritual essence got placed in or attached to your body?

[–]SnowAssMan 11 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 3 fun -  (39 children)

You say this a lot. Like, you always volunteer this information, unprompted. The lady doth protest too much methinks. I don't know anyone who would insist that if they had to live as the opposite sex they'd have crippling dysphoria & make any & every attempt to change their sex. You can have your agenda without being so patronising about it.

You are not trans, like most of us here, so it's not like you have a unique insight. We are all capable of putting ourselves in the exact same situation you outlined. I personally can safely say, if I woke up tomorrow & I was female I'd hate it, but I'd just deal with it. I wouldn't self-identify as a man & use a masculine name & pronouns. I wouldn't take hormones that would make me go bald & grow a beard nor would I amputate my breasts.

The penis, the height & not having to be female, are the only things worthwhile about being male anyway, but transition can't give you any of those things.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The penis, the height & not having to be female

A little redundant, no?

[–]worried19 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Some of us females do have height, anyway.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ha yes. But having a penis and not having to be female definitely warrant different categories, they are both so hugely significant and grand. I mean imagine you get the penis and then additionally avoid any icky femaley reality, you don't HAVE TO DO IT; could life be better? Let us count the ways.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (35 children)

You say this a lot. Like, you always volunteer this information, unprompted. The lady doth protest too much methinks.

This is my way of explaining gender identity and dysphoria and it's true.

I don't know anyone who would insist that if they had to live as the opposite sex they'd have crippling dysphoria & make any & every attempt to change their sex.

Well now you know someone who does. Also, many trans people themselves say they have crippling dysphoria.

You are not trans, like most of us here, so it's not like you have a unique insight.

A lot of us on this sub are also not trans.

I personally can safely say, if I woke up tomorrow & I was female I'd hate it, but I'd just deal with it. I wouldn't self-identify as a man & use a masculine name & pronouns. I wouldn't take hormones that would make me go bald & grow a beard nor would I amputate my breasts.

That's you. Also, cis men with gynecomastia have surgery to remove their large breasts. Do you call that ?amputation

The penis, the height & not having to be female, are the only things worthwhile about being male anyway, but transition can't give you any of those things.

The only thing you can't change via transition is your height. Trans men can have a penis via SRS.

[–]MarkTwainiac 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The only thing you can't change via transition is your height. Trans men can have a penis via SRS.

Please don't spread lies like these. Coz young people see them and as might believe them. "Transition" changes very little physically. A "transman" will still have XX chromosomes, female immune function, a female pelvis, female femurs, a female heart, a female respiratory system and so on. Transition doesn't cause a female person to grow larger hands and feet, a larger left ventricle, bigger lungs or to develop male grip strength.

What female people get via "SRS" is not a penis. Nothing like a penis.

[–]BiologyIsReal 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

The only thing you can't change via transition is your height. Trans men can have a penis via SRS.

It didn't work that way for this "trans man".

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (28 children)

The problem is that doctors failed to ask for his birth sex, not him presenting as a man. Also, I don't trust sources that purposefully misgender trans people. Many trans people are fighting for better health care and we need to join the fight by listening to trans men.

[–]BiologyIsReal 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

The problem is that professionals who should know better caved to the trans lobby and started using gender identity rather than sex in medical records. Also, Whitley was so happy with all this "validation" that Whitley didn't think of challenging the doctors' misperceptions. But that is beside th point. If it were true that you can change everything but height through "transition", then why would "birth" sex matter at all in trans identified patients' health care?

I don't trust sources that purposefully misgender trans people.

Just in case you think this story is made up, they list this BBC article as their source.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 3 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 7 fun -  (14 children)

I'm not saying the story is made up. I'm saying GC sites like womenarehuman.com have no business pretending to advocate for trans men. Trans men have said over and over again they do not want gender critical activism.

Take a look at r/FTM. There are 20+ threads complaining about "TERFs". There are also many articles on other sites written by trans men complaining about "TERFs" and mind you GCs consider TERF a slur. So that means they don't want your activism. In contrast I found only ONE thread on r/FTM complaining about trans women, yet GCs keep saying trans women talk over trans men. This is obviously a GC concern more than trans men's concern.

To be an ally to a group, you have to listen to actual members of that group, not impose your own ideas. Imagine a white self-proclaimed ally saying "well, that interaction wasn't really racist" when multiple POC say otherwise? Besides the blatant misgendering, trans men are a marginalized community and its rude and gross to speak over people who made it clear they don't want you to speak for them.

Trans men are fighting for better healthcare. Just yesterday there was a thread on r/FTM titled I hate when I feel like there’s something wrong with my reproductive stuff and I try to see what the problem is and how to fix it but everything is labeled as “WOMEN” “GIRL” and “FEMALE.”. I know this is contradictory to what GCs want, as they call for eliminating the terms women and girls for health issues traditionally considered "female" But GCs and trans men have opposite agendas, which is why GCs should never speak for trans men and trans men should never speak for GC. GCs do their activism. Trans men and their allies do their activism.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

Take a look at r/FTM

Reddit has a reliability factor somewhere between bending the truth and untreated schizophrenia. Surely there are better sources.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (3 children)

Here are articles by trans men from other sites.

J.K. Rowling and the Echo Chamber of TERFs - Slate

Trabnsphobes And Trans Men - Jay Hulme

Why are trans men always left out of the conversation? - Huck Magazine

[–]SnowAssMan 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Trans men have said over and over again they do not want gender critical activism

Conservative women say the same thing.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

In that case I would not use a conservative woman as an example for an article on voting rights or abortion rights.

[–]BiologyIsReal 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

How are GC suppused to get our point across if we are not allowed to talk about trans people?! (I assume you don't like we speak for "trans women" and people with other "gender identities", either, right?) You've said yourself: we have opposite goals, that is why we need to talk. Why are transactivists the only ones allowed to talk about women's rights?

Moreover, I also care about science and public health. That is why I talk (and share articles) about how transgenderism affects these areas.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (5 children)

You can talk about trans people, but that site is using an example of a specific person who most likely does not want his case to be used as an example by transphobes, and has the same opinion on "TERFs" as r/gendercynical. At the very least they could have been respectful by using he and Mr.

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

The problem is that doctors failed to ask for his birth sex, not him presenting as a man.

See, this I disagree with 1000%. Many people have medically-relevant physical conditions or have engaged in medically-relevant behaviors that are not apparent on sight but which we are obliged to inform HCPs of when we seek care coz these conditions & behaviors might well affect diagnosis and treatment.

IMHO, it's arrogant and preposterous for people like this "trans man" to expect that HCFs and the intake nurses who work in ERs & other HCFs should suddenly adopt new entirely standards and protocols to placate a population that only recently has emerged and which has done nothing to persuade the medical profession or wider public of why we have to adopt new ways.

This is not how women in the 1970s got the term "Ms." widely accepted as substitute for "Miss" and "Mrs."

Also, if this "trans man" were asked to state her sex, who's to say that she would have responded honestly?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (4 children)

IMHO, it's arrogant and preposterous for people like this "trans man" to expect that HCFs and the intake nurses who work in ERs & other HCFs should suddenly adopt new entirely standards and protocols to placate a population that only recently has emerged and which has done nothing to persuade the medical profession or wider public of why we have to adopt new ways.

Here are a list trans people from the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries. Eleanor Rykener, Alan L. Hart, Lucy Hicks Anderson, Amelio Robles Ávila, Sir Lady Java, Willmer ‘Little Ax” Broadnax, Chevalier d’Eon, Harry Allen, Michael Dillon and Charley Parkhurst. Trans people have not "recently emerged". We are persuading the wider public. You just disagree on how to go about it.

Also, if this "trans man" were asked to state her sex, who's to say that she would have responded honestly?

It's he and yes trans people do tell doctors their birth sex.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It's he and yes trans people do tell doctors their birth sex.

Except in the particular case we are discussing the person didn't reveal this information.

Also, FYI in health care the front line people doing the crucial gatekeeping are usually never doctors. People with hidden health conditions and medically relevant behaviors have a duty to reveal their/our situations to people doing the intake. Whether those people be the EMS workers who respond to a 911 or 999 call, the triage nurse in an ER/AE, the administrator who takes your details, or the other parties on the line in a virtual medical consult.

That list of "trans people" from prior centuries isn't the convincing proof you think it is.

[–]worried19 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It's also horrible and arrogant to retroactively decide that people from centuries ago were transgender when the concept did not exist for them.

If I lived 150 years ago, I'd disguise myself as a man. And then TRAs from the 21st century would go around telling everyone I actually had a male gender soul instead of merely being a gender nonconforming woman trying to survive in a hostile environment. While erasing all the accomplishments that I made as a female in the meantime. They've done it to women like Jennie Hodgers and James Barry. For a movement that's supposedly all about respecting people's identities, they sure don't put mind putting words in the mouths of dead people. This is like the Mormons posthumously baptizing Anne Frank. It's fucking offensive as hell.

[–]strictly 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I don't trust sources that purposefully misgender trans people.

Misgendering requires using gender definitions as one cannot misgender someone without first referring to gender identity. Do you have quote proving that this source states that they consider male and female gender identities? Because if they refer to sex they can by definition not misgender, only mis-sex, and calling female people female is correctly-sexing, not mis-sexing. But even if this source had mis-sexed this female person as "male" then I don't think this person would have minded it as many trans people have being mis-sexed as a goal for them.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (4 children)

Misgendering is using terms and pronouns that person said they do not prefer. Was it so hard for them to type he, him, his, and Mr.?

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Missexing someone is confusing and inaccurate. I don't trust sources that call men "she" and women "he". It would be a lot harder to destroy women's sports and spaces if media sources accurately sexed people in their articles. He broke all of the women sports records. He was transferred to a women's prison and shortly assaulted prisoners. He is demanding access to women's locker rooms. Accurately sexing people put's these issues in a much clearer light.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

Missexing someone is confusing and inaccurate. I don't trust sources that call men "she" and women "he".

I don't either, which is why I don't trust womenarehuman.com.

It would be a lot harder to destroy women's sports and spaces if media sources accurately sexed people in their articles.

But in this case we're using he for someone born female, and according to GCs men's spaces don't need protection.

[–]strictly 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Misgendering is using terms and pronouns that person said they do not prefer.

Misgendering, as the name indicates, is lying about someone having a gender identity they don't have. Calling someone a pronoun they don't prefer is not proof of misgendering as you need evidence the person indeed referred to a false gender identity, and a prerequirement for that is that speaker uses a gender identity based system for their pronoun usage as otherwise they wouldn’t be able to refer to a false gender identity in the first place. The most likely perpetrator of misgendering is thus a trans activist, as they have the required belief system to perform misgendering (and trans activists happen to be quite keen on misgendering non-trans people with false gender identities).

If you refer to something else than lying about gender identities with misgendering then you are using the wrong word for it and should use a more accurate word representing the phenomena you have in mind.

Was it so hard for them to type he, him, his, and Mr.?

I don't use a gender identity based system for pronouns so it would be lying of me to call a known female "he". Lying isn't hard but it's against my morals. I don't use a gender identity based system as that almost inevitably leads to misgendering people en masse and I happen to have strong negative feelings against misgendering (a lie about the mind) as that would be much more personal than any accidental mis-sexing, no one should ever have to be labeled with a false gender identity.

[–]grixitperson 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"Misgendering" is a false concept.

[–]SnowAssMan 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

This is my way of explaining gender identity and dysphoria and it's true [...] Well now you know someone who does

No one asked. The more you say it, the less convincing it sounds. It just sounds like someone desperately trying to push an agenda. Everyone can tell how counter-intuitive your supposed reaction to being the opposite sex would be. It sounds so unconvincing, but the trans cult method is to always repeat gibberish indefinitely in the hopes that it'll sound more convincing the more people read/hear it. The reason we are here is because we're immune to that tactic.

cis men with gynecomastia have surgery to remove their large breasts. Do you call that ?amputation

Breasts on a woman aren't incongruous. They certainly aren't due to a condition called "gynecomastia". Only men can have gynecomastia.

Trans men can have a penis via SRS.

Purely cosmetic. When I said having a penis was one of the only things worthwhile about being male, I wasn't taking about the way it looks. There are people who believe that surgeons are magicians. I'm not one of those people.

[–]BiologyIsReal 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Purely cosmetic. When I said having a penis was one of the only things worthwhile about being male, I wasn't taking about the way it looks.

I think it's not even that. Some time ago, there was a post in the GC sub that showed an picture of the "neopenis" of a "trans man". It didn't looked like a penis, like at all.

[–]worried19 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Also, cis men with gynecomastia have surgery to remove their large breasts.

Very rarely, though. Haven't you seen tons of regular dudes in public with moobs?

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Also, the breast tissue that males with gynecomastia might have removed in surgery is entirely different to the breast tissue of female people.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It is so ridiculous argument. You don't know what you would be thinking then - you would grow up with different surroundings, different abilities, as a different person, most likely you would have different if not opposite views on some questions, you would be just different person, so your reaction would be very different to yours now. Our experience is what is making us ourselves for the most part.

[–]Juniperius 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The only way you could have been born male is if you had been conceived male. The only way you could have been conceived male is if a different sperm, one bearing a Y chromosome instead of an X, had combined with the egg in your mother's fallopian tube. A different sperm would have led to an entirely different individual, not you at all. You can't make the claim that if you had been born male you would have had any particular feelings about it, because you wouldn't have been you at all.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That is very interesting. I don't see it as a spiritual essence for me, but I think I've seen a lot of other people who do see it that way. Before transgenderism and transsexualism became as well-known as they are now, I had never heard of a gender identity until learning about Gender Identity Disorder. When I was growing up I wondered if everyone else thought they were supposed to be the opposite sex, but came to learn that no, they do not. But I came to understand that gender identity only is a thing because of GID and transsexualism to try and explain our condition. Years ago I would have never imagined that people would be talking about gender identities in public discourse, it's really surreal!

I'm very curious: does awareness of the concept of a gender identity help you in any way? I have difficulty understanding why non-trans people have an interest in this, and even defend it, so I would really like to know how gender identity benefits non-trans people.