QT: Even by your own beliefs, sexuality can't be based on "gender identity"

submitted by BiologyIsReal from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 3 fun -  (20 children)

You mean the stereotyping is linking butch with masculine or lesbian with butch?

I would link butchness with lesbianism.

I would thinking cross gender conformity is linked to same sex attraction is a human universal. Are you saying it isn't?

You keep insisting that everyone on earth who is same-sex attracted conforms to the most rigid, regressive and cartoonish sex stereotypes associated with the opposite sex. To you, all lesbians are "butch" and presumably all gay men are, excuse the offensive terms, "limp-wristed" and "swishy."

Yes, I am saying that this is not a universal truth. Only some lesbians and gay men fit your stereotypes; a vast number do not. Moreover, many women whom sexists regard as "butch" are not lesbians.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (19 children)

You keep insisting that everyone on earth who is same-sex attracted conforms to the most rigid, regressive and cartoonish sex stereotypes associated with the opposite sex.

I don't and I have never said it is a one to one pattern.

I say there is an indirect correlated pattern.

Someone who is same sex attracted is more likely to be gender non conforming.

To you, all lesbians are "butch" and presumably all gay men are, excuse the offensive terms, "limp-wristed" and "swishy."

No there is a pattern.

Yes, I am saying that this is not a universal truth. Only some lesbians and gay men fit your stereotypes; a vast number do not. Moreover, many women whom sexists regard as "butch" are not lesbians.

But the majority of straight people are conforming.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I say there is an indirect correlated pattern.

It is oppositely correlated pattern, thought.

Causal relationship is opposite here. In this case it will be: some women are loving other women not because they are breaking gender stereotypes, but some women are breaking gender stereotypes because they are loving other women.

But the majority of straight people are conforming.

Majority of homosexual people are conforming as well.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

It is oppositely correlated pattern, thought.

How so?

Gender conformity is correlated with heterosexual attraction. The majority of conforming people will be heterosexually attracted.

Gender non conformity is correlated with same sex attraction. At least people who are same sex attracted are more likely to be non conforming.

In this case it will be: some women are loving other women not because they are breaking gender stereotypes, but some women are breaking gender stereotypes because they are loving other women.

That seems circular.

You are saying some women are attracted to women because they are gender non conforming?

Majority of homosexual people are conforming as well.

Possibly but that does not mean there isn't a pattern.

What is the majority of gnc people?

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 11 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

That seems circular.

You are saying some women are attracted to women because they are gender non conforming?

I am not saying that. I am saying that women who are attracted to women will be more likely gender non conforming (because of few reasons - they don't need to attract men, and they may want to signal that they want more attention from women), but gender non conformity is not the reason why they are attracted to women. While your version was the opposite - that women are attracted to women because they are gender non conforming.

What is the majority of gnc people?

Teens.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Someone who is same sex attracted is more likely to be gender non conforming.

Wait, what? No --- not apart from specific geo-cultural mediation.

And earlier:

GC routinely says gender non conformity in children is related to them growing up to be gay adults and not being trans.

It emphatically doesn't.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (14 children)

Wait, what? No --- not apart from specific geo-cultural mediation.

You think gender conformity has no pattern of expression related to same sex attraction?

It emphatically doesn't.

Isn't this the common position?

"Just because a child is gnc doesn't mean they are going to grow up to transition, they can grow up to gay."

You haven't heard that argument?

I mean I think there is some validity in it.

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"Just because a child is gnc doesn't mean they are going to grow up to transition, they can grow up to gay."

You haven't heard that argument?

Yes, I've heard that argument. But the full argument is that some children who are "gnc" will grow up to be gay. Not all. Not even close to all.

Fact is, being "gnc" is very common amongst kids of both sexes and all future sexual orientations, particularly prior to puberty. Amongst girls historically, being "gnc" pre-puberty was the norm no matter which sex we'd later feel attraction to.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

You think gender conformity has no pattern of expression related to same sex attraction?

In the sprawling metro U.S. region I grew up in pre-Disney-Princess-era, no. In the unis I've attended here and abroad in the West, no. YMMV.

Isn't this the common position?

Not in GC thought. The common position is that gender is imposed and (re)enforced for a variety of longstanding reasons, the most recent being commercial profit from a captive market.

You haven't heard that argument?

No, I honestly haven't. It doesn't remotely pass (no pun) as anything with lineage to GC thought and reasoning.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (11 children)

In the sprawling metro U.S. region I grew up in pre-Disney-Princess-era, no. In the unis I've attended here and abroad in the West, no. YMMV.

To be clear you are saying in these environments there is no relationship between gender expression and sexual orientation?

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

There didn't seem to be, in terms of masc/femme attributes. This was also before the trans craze really gained momentum.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (9 children)

You're saying before "the trans craze" the populations in these environments were equally masculine and feminine regardless of their sex?

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

No, that's not what I said, and it's not what I'm "saying."

I also know enough Greats to know a logos trap when I see one.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (7 children)

So what are you meaning?