QT: Even by your own beliefs, sexuality can't be based on "gender identity"

submitted by BiologyIsReal from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 6 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 6 fun -  (5 children)

I think most QT here are more truscum so you're not going to get much debate on this point.

Steve is a 45 year-old male who everyone thinks he is very "manly"

And masculinity goes with being a man right?

I'm interested in the essentialism here. How essentialist are you?

Was Jessica masculine?

If Jane came out as a lesbian at 45 and became masculine would we doubt her? I mean I wouldn't.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 11 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

A man is an adult human male and a woman is an adult human female, and male and female refer to someone's sex. Meanwhile masculinity and feminity refer to the roles and stereotypes that society expects from each sex, and may vary through time and culture. I don't think there are many people who align perfectly with all the stereotypes associated with their sex in their respective cultures. Even if you're a perfect match, you may not be so in another country or time.

I don't think you can be born in the wrong body because I don't believe in the mind-body dualism. Your brain is another part of your body. I don't believe in "true trans" (and neither in "trans trenders" for that matter). I think there are people who for a variety of reasons want to be the opposite sex, and may take a variety of steps to present as such. However, they don't really become the opposite sex because such thing is not possible for humans, neither naturally nor with technogical aid. I think that trans people, deep down, understand this impossibility, and that is why they often get very angry when other people don't validate their "identities".

People don't think of Jessica as "masculine". For my examples to work, both Steve and Jessica needed to be not obviously trans. So, both Jane and Helen are shocked by these turn of events. The only reason I can think for Jane "discovering" her "lesbianism" now would be to go along with Steve's new "identity".

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (3 children)

A man is an adult human male and a woman is an adult human female, and male and female refer to someone's sex.

Sure.

Meanwhile masculinity and feminity refer to the roles and stereotypes that society expects from each sex, and may vary through time and culture.

But you essentialised masculinity to the man which is fine but that's a different argument.

People don't think of Jessica as "masculine".

How? People don't think of masculine people as masculine?

For my examples to work, both Steve and Jessica needed to be not obviously trans.

You mean obviously trans would be Steve being feminine and Jessica being masculine?

The only reason I can think for Jane "discovering" her "lesbianism" now would be to go along with Steve's new "identity".

You mean feminine middle aged married women never become lesbians and never adopt a butch lifestyle?

The only possible reason would be accommodate a husband's new "identity" ?

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

But you essentialised masculinity to the man which is fine but that's a different argument.

I did not such thing, but I just described what is generally mean by masculine and feminine. Men and women who are break enough sex roles may be called as feminine and masculine respectively, but that doesn't change the fact the concepts are tied to what society expects from each sex.

How? People don't think of masculine people as masculine?

I'm saying that prior to her coming out, people didn't see Jessica as masculine.

You mean obviously trans would be Steve being feminine and Jessica being masculine?

I mean if Steve and Jessica were GNC, peope would not be as surprised by their coming out.

You mean feminine middle aged married women never become lesbians and never adopt a butch lifestyle?

The only possible reason would be accommodate a husband's new "identity" ?

I was talking about this particular example. Provided they don't live in a country where homosexuality is persecuted, coming out as a butch lesbian in middle age doesn't seem very likely to me. But I'm a straight woman, so I'm won't speculate any further about this.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

I did not such thing, but I just described what is generally mean by masculine and feminine. Men and women who are break enough sex roles may be called as feminine and masculine respectively, but that doesn't change the fact the concepts are tied to what society expects from each sex.

Concepts that exist in all societies.

I'm saying that prior to her coming out, people didn't see Jessica as masculine.

OK.

I mean if Steve and Jessica were GNC, peope would not be as surprised by their coming out.

I agree they'd be less surprised.

Provided they don't live in a country where homosexuality is persecuted, coming out as a butch lesbian in middle age doesn't seem very likely to me.

I think it still very much happens.

I guess people can change naturally too.

But I'm a straight woman, so I'm won't speculate any further about this.

But you posted this an invited us to debate and speculate on all this.

I'd say people here are free to debate sex and gender no matter who they are. It's very much part of the debate.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I didn't make a thread asking about feminine women coming out as butch lesbian in middle age. You're the one who brought this topic up. Yes, this is a debate sub, but I prefer to debate about what I know. Anyway, why are YOU not answering whether sexual orientation is based in sex or "gender identity", which is what this thread was about?