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[–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

If Jane came out as a lesbian at 45 and became masculine would we doubt her?

I'd definitely doubt her motivations, being GNC and having had a front row seat to the Stockholm Syndrome that accompanies staying married to an AGP who transitions in late adulthood. Butch lesbians don't tend to suddenly appear in midlife.

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Butch lesbians don't tend to suddenly appear in midlife.

A lot of women who aren't butch have and do come out as lesbians in midlife and later. Some butch women too.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes. Was replying specifically to Theory's scenario re "Jane."

(eta "Jane" is not equivalent to "Stephanie")

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 5 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 5 fun -  (17 children)

Butch lesbians don't tend to suddenly appear in midlife.

I think they do happen.

I think they tire of not being themeselves.

So you are a Blanchardian? That is essentialist. Gender norms would be tied to sex.

But you also say you are a straight gnc woman?

[–]AlexisK 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

"Don't tend to suddenly happen" and "don't happen at all" are two different things.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Exactly. Thank you.

(Also -- sarcasm. No humans "suddenly appear" midlife, excepting alien abduction returnees.)

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (13 children)

Well they were the ones implying it doesn't happen by doubting her motivations.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Given the circunstances, the most likely explanation is that Jane is denying her heterosexuality because not doing so would "invalidate" Stephanie.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Given the circunstances, the most likely explanation is that Jane is denying her heterosexuality because not doing so would "invalidate" Stephanie.

That's a very commonly reported reality -- Jane is pressured to "recraft" her public persona as a lesbian (which she isn't) for the comfort of Stephanie, who also now presents as a lesbian (and is not). It's a double deception.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

I wasn't meaning Steve had changed as well, I was theorising instead Jane had come out.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Coming out and transitioning are fundamentally different categories of action.

ETA "instead" is huge . . . completely changes the thought experiment.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

My statement:

Butch lesbians don't tend to suddenly appear in midlife.

They don't. They may become aware of their sexuality in midlife. They may come out of the closet in midlife. They do not appear from whole cloth in midlife as radically distinctive personae, as "Stephanie" has -- because lesbianism is a sexual orientation and therefore innate.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (7 children)

They don't. They may become aware of their sexuality in midlife.

To outward appearances they might suddenly appear.

But that can be internally be experienced as becoming aware.

I'm not sure exactly how that can happen midlife but I suspect it can for anyone. But I never think it's an active choice.

They may come out of the closet in midlife. They do not appear from whole cloth in midlife as radically distinctive personae, as "Stephanie" has -- because lesbianism is a sexual orientation and therefore innate.

But you do think a person can change gender expression midlife in a way that is unexpected to outsiders?

I think that would look like a distinctive change. A person becoming gnc, trans aside. You do think that happens? They realise how they want to live.

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But you do think a person can change gender expression midlife in a way that is unexpected to outsiders?

I know a number of women who definitely changed "gender expression midlife in a way unexpected to outsiders." Coz when they were teens they became Catholic nuns. And many decades later they left the convent and became average Jane citizens. Some of them came out as lesbians after leaving the convent - and amongst those in that category, some were "butch" and some were not. But other ex-nuns came out as heterosexual women who had relationships with and married men.

My stepmother was such a woman. For 44 years she had her head shaved, wore a religious habit, adopted a dour and severe affect, and served in many high-level, authoritative roles in Catholic education where she scared the bejeezus out of the school kids and college women who attended the institutions where she was a teacher, principal, dean and president. I was fortunate to be with her in many situations in her post-nun life when she was out and about in the world looking like a bog standard woman of elder years with her (now grown-out) hair showing along with her arms, legs and figure and younger women or men with perplexed but curious looks on their faces would tentatively approach and nervously say, "Excuse me, Sister Jerome is that you?"

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

But you do think a person can change gender expression midlife in a way that is unexpected to outsiders?

Don't you know any women who've recently given birth and/or have young children? Many chop their hair off and eschew beauty and grooming routines coz they are too exhausted and overwhelmed to be bothered.

Don't you know any older women who reached a certain point in life and adopted a stance of I don't give a shit any more?

[–][deleted] 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Don't you know any older women who reached a certain point in life and adopted a stance of I don't give a shit any more?

(We should have a rite of passage for this) 😼

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (2 children)

Of course but they don't seem happy about it. I don't think exhaustion is something they are embracing.

Just as I don't think men who have to give up aspects of their masculinity out of exhaustion are excited about it.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Mothers of young children who eschew sexist beauty and grooming standards certainly suffer exhaustion. But the legions of older women who take a stance of I don't give a shit any more are not necessarily doing so out of exhaustion. At all.

And we're happy about it too! It's one of the great secrets of women's lives after menopause that male-dominated misogynistic mainstream media and society have suppressed.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

But what's the claim here?

Because you're jumping between different reasons exhaustion, menopause, a rejection femininity due to misogyny.

They're very different things.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm not sure exactly how that can happen midlife but I suspect it can for anyone. But I never think it's an active choice.

Jane discovering she's a lesbian midlife and (let's say) having a masc makeover isn't a compulsion. There's no "butch starter kit" she needs to buy.

If she chooses to alter her appearance and presentation to mark her coming out (rock it, Jane), that's a voluntary action. It isn't compulsory, it isn't correlative of her sexual orientation, and it definitely isn't necessary.

People absolutely can change how they express themselves midlife, but, to repeat, gender expression and sexual orientation are fundamentally different. Lesbian is what Jane is. Grooming and dressing and adopting mannerisms that signal within a given gay subculture is what Jane does (or doesn't do). They're not fused realities, and there's no causal relationship.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

a) I'm not a Blanchardian. I am a keen observer with first-person experience of what I've described, including butch lesbians. Coming out (in midlife or otherwise) is not equivalent to an abrupt and distinct change in personality, nor is personality equivalent to persona.

b) I am a lifelong GNC woman. I haven't discussed my sexuality here (yet). I propose you're focused too keenly on my POV (bias-hunting?) at the expense of my critique of your thought experiment about "Jane."

Let's discuss "Jane," shall we?