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[–]IWoreWhat 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (3 children)

Why? It is invasive treatment that can harm kids.

Oh come on. The minute someone is born, they are naked, and their genitalia is seen. That's how doctors figure out they are male or female.

That's definitely "invasive", but should be done. We can't say "omg it harms kids to look at their genitals, what are you, you a pedo? omg!! omg omg".

You know what's invasive? Not doing tests, thinking someone with boobs is female eventhough they have testes and letting a lie continue around in circles. Yes. People with CAIS have testes, so even if they didn't do more tests, they would see the testes, and figure out it's a male. Usually the testes are removed because they are underdeveloped and could turn cancerous. Doctors KNOW all the CAIS individuals are male. But either they don't tell the family, or if they do the family lies to the kids with CAIS that they are girls eventhough they aren't.

Want to know what's even more invasive? Not doing tests, telling CAIS people they are women eventhough they aren't, and when they come to the realization, it's too late. Speaking for myself, if I learned someone I thought was a "she" was a he instead of a "she", I would feel totally disgusted for the deception.

Or I can imagine if I had DSD, but found out about this way later, I would be very very angry because it means I did not know myself and the issues I had, all because of people like you advocating for doctors not to do more tests at birth to find out if someone has DSDs.

Your intention is to not do tests, to keep things hidden until some day people with DSD figure out they have DSD. This is outright disgusting and horrible. Making people use false language because you think "it's invasive to look at the genes and organs of kids, to figure out they have DSD". You must be a liberal.

You DO understand everyone does tests later on right? All it takes is look at genes, or the inside of the body with a device to show if there are underdeveloped organs.

People like you are the reason we are in this mess right now.

Anyway, there is no way testing kids to see if they have DSDs is invasive, just like vaccinating kids is not invasive, or bathing kids is not invasive, or examining kids' blood to see if they have other diseases is not invasive.

In what mess? There is no mess at all.

It is a mess. You are too blinded to see it.

she did asked you questions here and previously. And other people did same, but you never answering them.

Lmfao what questions? "Why are you ignoring all the questions and answers" was the only one repetitively being asked. Please list the other questions here if there are any, because I saw none.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Oh come on. The minute someone is born, they are naked, and their genitalia is seen. That's how doctors figure out they are male or female.

No, doctors are making blood test or ultrasound during pregnancy, around 10-12th week of pregnancy. And when kid is born they are only checking by genitals if everything correct.

Both males and females with CAIS are looking like a female when born. To check if it is male or female for sure, they will need to do X-rays and blood test of a newborn. That's pretty invasive and does not worth it to do, because it will take a lot of resources and can hurt mother or kid, especially when speaking about such rare condition that majority of doctors and midwives will never ever encounter in their whole life and medical practice. And this condition is not causing any troubles until 16-20 years anyways, unlike some intersex conditions which require saving after birth, but those conditions do not have ambigious genitals looking like female ones - they have "penis-looking" genitals instead of "vulva-looking genitals" and they are starting to vomit and similar stuff.

You DO understand everyone does tests later on right? All it takes is look at genes, or the inside of the body with a device to show if there are underdeveloped organs.

But why do it for every kid if only one in few millions girls born will have it? Why do it on rest? It is not saving anyones lives and can do harm - either physical or psychological. Why are you so obsessed with this question about extremely rare condition?

People with CAIS have testes, so even if they didn't do more tests, they would see the testes, and figure out it's a male.

Those testes are underdeveloped and inside body, they are not seen when you see them naked. People with CAIS looking completely like a female when naked, they even have labia and underdeveloped clitoris. So you can't really say it is not a woman by such inspection.

Looks like you think that testes are outside and visible, that's why you are saying those ignorant and very weird things, I suppose. If you thought that testes are visible, then your posts starting to make at least a little sense, actually.

Your intention is to not do tests, to keep things hidden until some day people with DSD figure out they have DSD.

As I said, DSD which are posing danger to life are seen early and without tests. Most are found out before or during puberty because of abnormalities or other health issues. Almost all DSD conditions are unambigiously male or female looking as well. So you will never confuse them with other sex. Only very few of 40 conditions have any ambiguity to them.

It is a mess. You are too blinded to see it.

Which mess? That one in two millions women who have completely female phenotype, was raised as a girl and maybe not even knowing themselves about their condition, is someone with CAIS? I don't see any mess here. They aren't much stronger than other women, they can't impregnate, they do not have "male entitlement" nurtured, and it is impossible to tell that they have CAIS without special medical tests. Obviously if they are starting to date with someone, they should enclose it, and as far as I know - majority who know of their situation do.

because I saw none.

Just doing ctrl+F on "?" showed me there were few.

And you not answered my question:

What do you mean "now we know"?

We know what? And we - who? And why only now? This information about CAIS condition is known for long time now. Or you mean you think that woman you was chatting has CAIS? I think she said she had CAH, it is completely different condition, not even remotely related.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

No, doctors are making blood test or ultrasound during pregnancy, around 10-12th week of pregnancy. And when kid is born they are only checking by genitals if everything correct.

To check if it is male or female for sure, they will need to do X-rays and blood test of a newborn. That's pretty invasive and does not worth it to do, because it will take a lot of resources and can hurt mother or kid, especially when speaking about such rare condition

Violet, whilst I agree with your points overall, for the sake of others who will read this thread, I want to point out that screenings for the presence or absence of internal organs like undescended testes, ovaries, uterus, etc doesn't require X-rays; scanning by ultrasound works fine and is the customary method - and it's not invasive, nor does it cause any health risks like X-rays do.

Moreover, and more to the point, in many places in the world, mandatory blood tests on newborns are already done to check them for a variety of genetic disorders.

In the US, for example, each of the 50 states (as well as in the District of Columbia and I believe in the territories) have laws in place that make it mandatory by law for blood to be drawn from newborns' foot shortly after birth so it can be determined if the child has various very rare genetic disorders. Exactly which disorders are tested for varies a bit depending on the jurisdiction.

Here is the list of the disorders newborns are currently tested for by law in New York state. https://www.wadsworth.org/programs/newborn/screening/screened-disorders

As you can see, it includes testing for one DSD, namely the specific type of Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia caused by

CAH1, CYP21 deficiency, Hyperandrogenism, nonclassic type, due to 21-hydroxylase deficiency

Congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH) is a group of inherited endocrine disorders of impaired steroid hormone production by the adrenal glands. The synthesis of cortisol in the adrenal gland requires the production of a number of different enzymes, the lack of which will result in CAH. In 95% of CAH cases, 21-hydroxylase deficiency causes CAH and therefore newborn screening tests for the deficiency in this enzyme. In 21-hydroxylase deficiency CAH, the adrenal glands produce too much male sex hormone (androgens) which cause many of the symptoms of CAH. Additionally, in severe forms of CAH, the resultant lack of cortisol and aldosterone can cause life threatening complications. Cortisol is important for the body’s stress response and for controlling blood sugar levels. Aldosterone is important for regulating sodium balance in the body.

Below is the listing of the genetic disorders newborns in the state of Connecticut, which is next door to NY, are tested for, as well as a list that groups the disorders together by type. It includes CAH too, though Connecticut's website doesn't go into the same detail as the NY website does:

https://portal.ct.gov/-/media/DPH/NBS-Forms-and-Documents/Conditions_alphabetical_by_disease_01-2020.pdf

https://portal.ct.gov/-/media/DPH/NBS-Forms-and-Documents/Conditions_by_classification_01-2020.pdf

All the genetic conditions that the various states in the US do mandatory testing of newborns for are conditions in which early diagnosis and intervention is necessary to guarantee the child's survival in infancy or to stave off severe, irreversible damage to his or her physical health that can lead to disability and early death down the line. Such as cystic fibrosis, sickle cell and severe combined immune deficiency or SCID (aka "bubble boy disease").

However, even where such conditions are sex-linked, as in the case of SCID, testing to determine a child's sex chromosomes is not part of mandatory newborn blood screening protocols in any jurisdiction in the US.

From the viewpoint of practicality, in the US (and many other countries today) testing all newborns' blood for genetic anomalies known to cause various DSDs is possible and affordable - just as testing for any of thousands of other genetic anomalies that cause or can cause a host of other medical conditions is today. However, testing for all these other conditions is not done because of costs and many ethical issues. In order to justify adding CAIS - or any other DSD - to the mandatory newborn screening done in the USA today, it would have to be known exactly what genetic anomaly/ies cause it - and it would have to shown that unless diagnosed at birth, the condition can or will lead to death, will greatly reduce the child's expected life span, or is sure to cause severe physical health problems that can't be addressed and ameliorated if the condition is diagnosed at a later date in life.

CAIS does not fit this criteria. Nor, AFAIK, do other DSDs except for the salt-wasting form of CAH that u/ColoredTwice has and which US newborn screening programs already include as a matter of course. That's the one DSD that can be fatal if not diagnosed and treated early. As you noted, most DSDs do not require any medical intervention in childhood. And the possible presence of any DSD where early intervention might be something recommended or considered would be indicated by the appearance of the child's genitals and thus lead to further medical investigation and diagnosis.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Interesting to know about USA. Thanks!