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[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (21 children)

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Debatable, and depends on what the feminist's definition of "rights" for women are. Is it female liberation? Is it separatism? Is it gender abolition? Is it post-genderism? And what are the methods used, and to what end? For example, many 3rd wavers are supportive of the legalization and normalization of sex work. 2nd wavers would say prostitution and pornography are a stronghold of the patriarchy. There is a fundamental disagreement in ideology there, and it is impossible for them both to be right simultaneously. Only one of them is actually fighting for women's rights.

For me, "rights" mean having the same equal opportunities and equal treatment. For instance, women not being fired for being pregnant, equal pay, ending rape and sexual harassment (which happens to men also). I support abolishing gender roles (such as "girl toys" and "boy toys") and gendered language. For instance, cousin is a gender neutral term, but aunt and uncle are not. I would like to use gender neutral terms. Mother and father will exclusively refer to reproductive roles, otherwise you can use the sex-neutral term parent. There will be no more foster mothers and foster fathers, just foster parents, as they were not involved in the conception of the child. You can tell me your parent is in the hospital. I would also eliminate he and she, and replace them with gender neutral pronouns in every language. I do support decriminalizing sex work, as criminalizing sex work only hurts the sex worker. Pimping however should always be a crime.

I support ending sex shaming. Women who are promiscuous or openly sexual are called whores, sluts, told they don't respect themselves, that they didn't have a daddy to tell them they're beautiful and they don't need male attention. Men who are openly promiscuous/sexual do not experience the same value judgements. There was a thread on the old GC sub criticizing J.Lo for doing a strip tease at the super bowl. They said rich, powerful women who do this are objectifying themselves and are victimizers, unlike the vast majority of strippers who are victims. First of all, if you find this objectifying, change the channel and don't strip tease. Second, it's rude to label someone a victim without their consent when no crime has been committed against them. Those women may or may not feel victimized. I have my criticisms of the mainstream porn industry, but it feels like GC is against any and all sexual entertainment by women. If men are seeing every women as sex objects, they need to be addressed, not the women.

The problem is that before transition, trans women are treated as male and actually benefit from the pay disparity in the workplace, not suffer from it. I do wonder if there have been any studies done on transitioned/passing trans women in the workplace and what the paygap is compared to cis women, that would be interesting to see.

I have heard from trans people that they were treated differently once they transitioned.

This is vague and subject to individual interpretation. What does that concretely look like, and what material objective can be pursued to achieve it? I've had conservative women tell me they feel most "equal" when they are subservient to their traditional husbands.

What I meant by being seen as competent is being taken seriously at work. For instance, not having men mansplain you, having your ideas taken seriously, not just taken seriously when a man says the same thing afterwards. Also people not assuming you're less competent because you're a woman, which is the reason women get paid less than men.

Prosecuting rape is not just a feminist issue because it affects everyone. However, I'm glad you brought up the topic of rape, because it disproportionately affects females by male perpetrators. And by ending sex-segregated spaces, there are loopholes which will allow predators to enter those spaces unquestioned. This is already becoming an problem with female prisons.

I agree that rape is a problem, but I think the solution is private spaces, not sex segregated spaces. For instance, locker rooms should have stalls anyway, because why do you need to see a strangers genitals, same sex or not? Rape was always a problem in female prisons. Women rape and sexually harass other women. It doesn’t get as much attention, but it happens.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you referring to "slut shaming" or something else?

Yes, slut shaming.

This is great, these are important women's issues. However, abortion access and menstrual stigma are still priority too, ESPECIALLY in countries and cultures outside of the West. I have never seen trans women step up to the plate and fight with cis women to maintain these rights. Cis women are expected to fight for trans-specific issues, but trans women don't extend the same courtesy.

To an extent I agree.

In fact, it seems when they do talk about it, it's to say "stop calling them women's issues! you're making us feel left out" and center their feelings instead.

It's mainly trans men who insist you stop calling AFAB issues women's issues. It was a trans man who fought to remove the female symbol from Always products. It is trans men who insist you say "pregnant people".

At protests and marches for reproductive rights, pussy hats and uterus signs are branded as "TERF".

No. You are branded a TERF when you say things like "trans men aren't men" or "trans women aren't women", calling transgenderism misogyny, etc.

Why are cis women not allowed to talk about issues that affect their biology and 99% of women in general? If it affects 99% of women, it's a women's issue.

You are allowed to talk about those issues. Everyday Feminism and other social justice groups that are trans-supportive speak about these issues as well.

You're right, and this is my point. Title IX allowed for the establishment of sex-segregated spaces in schools and girls to be given their own sports etc. away from boys, by prohibiting sex discrimination. Prohibiting sex discrimination is what allows for girls to participate in opportunities that are equally afforded to boys. It applies to trans people too, you're correct, because trans people also have a sex.

Title IX does not require separate restrooms and locker rooms though. If schools built gender-neutral facilities, it would not violate Title IX.

Trans activists/feminists are deliberately trying to undo "on the basis of sex" by obfuscating sex and gender identity and render it meaningless.

I don't think using the term gender necessarily renders it meaningless. For instance the New York City Department of Education has Guidelines on Gender Inclusion. It states schools may not create gender-specific dress codes. If a school allows girls to wear skirts, they must allow boys to wear skirts. Schools can't require gender-specific attire for yearbook photos and graduation or other school-sponsored activities. Schools must also allow students to wear hairstyles regardless of gender.

As I stated in my original post, if anyone can identify into any gender or sex, then there is no reason to have any segregated spaces at all based on either gender OR sex.

The only area I support sex-segregated spaces is in sports.

Why were sex-segregated fought for in the first place, why was it necessary, why was it an achievement for women's rights? It is these questions that no QT has answered me, as I said in the OP, which is why I have a fundamental problem with their reasoning.

That's because previously spaces were male only with no substantial women's equivalent. Many of us would not mind gender-neutral spaces.

[–]BiologyIsReal 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

I would also eliminate he and she, and replace them with gender neutral pronouns in every language.

I'd prefer you leave us non-English speakers alone. You keep saying you care about all social issues, not only feminism. If that is the case, then why do you think it's reasonable to expect we modify our own languages just because some native English speakers find unnecssary to distinguish between the sexes? Sorry, but this sound quite colonialist to me.

Besides, what would be the purpose of this change? How would this help to eliminate sex inequalities? Using only gender neutral language means invisibilizing women and women's issues because men are viewed as the default. You'd be only making more difficult to talk about sexism and misogyny.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 3 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 7 fun -  (19 children)

I'd prefer you leave us non-English speakers alone. You keep saying you care about all social issues, not only feminism. If that is the case, then why do you think it's reasonable to expect we modify our own languages just because some native English speakers find unnecssary to distinguish between the sexes? Sorry, but this sound quite colonialist to me.

I'm a non-English speaker myself. My parents are from another country and I speak another language. Я сетим согласна.

This of course will require changes in English as well as other languages. I find it offensive you think all non-English speakers should think the same.

Besides, what would be the purpose of this change? How would this help to eliminate sex inequalities? Using only gender neutral language means invisibilizing women and women's issues because men are viewed as the default. You'd be only making more difficult to talk about sexism and misogyny.

We don't use pronouns based on race or disability, so why use gendered pronouns.

[–]BiologyIsReal 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

I'm a non-English speaker myself. My parents are from another country and I speak another language. Я сетим согласна.

This of course will require changes in English as well as other languages. I find it offensive you think all non-English speakers should think the same.

No, I don't think all non-English speakers should think the same, but apparently you do think so given what you have said. You're the one who want to change every language, including all the ones you don't speak to. Don't you think many non-English speakers would have a problem with this idea of getting rid of sex based words? Especially if the person proposing it neither speak their language nor live in their country?

We don't use pronouns based on race or disability, so why use gendered pronouns.

We're a sexually dismorphic species and sex matters a lot in things like health care, safeguarding, dating, making a family, sports, etcetera. That is why we have words that indicate sex and why is important to recolect data segregated by sex.

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (14 children)

why do you think it's reasonable to expect we modify our own languages just because some native English speakers find unnecssary to distinguish between the sexes?

Not the poster, but because pointless distinctions between the sexes such as third person pronouns are needlessly gendered and originate from the need to exclude women from normal life. I also want all cultures to stop pointlessly separating the sexes as well, and I really don't care how much they claim that misogyny is an integral part of their life and heritage.

Don't you think many non-English speakers would have a problem with this idea of getting rid of sex based words?

People literally always make up a stink over ending sexism. Nothing to see here.

We're a sexually dismorphic species and sex matters a lot in things like health care, safeguarding, dating, making a family, sports, etcetera. That is why we have words that indicate sex and why is important to recolect data segregated by sex.

Gendered pronouns are not needed for this. Words like "man" and "woman" are. Moreover, you can tell how unnecessary gendered pronouns are from the fact that English speakers are still perfectly capable of differentiating and speaking of men and women even outside of third person.

[–]BiologyIsReal 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Not the poster, but because pointless distinctions between the sexes such as third person pronouns are needlessly gendered and originate from the need to exclude women from normal life. I also want all cultures to stop pointlessly separating the sexes as well, and I really don't care how much they claim that misogyny is an integral part of their life and heritage.

People literally always make up a stink over ending sexism. Nothing to see here.

Way to completely miss my point... You make it sound like if we were talking about something like child marriage or FGM when, in fact, we were talking about sexed pronouns and words like aunt. You know, something that for most people is NOT a issue in the slightest.

This is not going to be a popular opinion, but sexism and misogyny exists in virtually every culture. Lots of people from developed countries like to see themselves as "progressive" and "more advanced" in social issues than the rest of the world. They can easily point out the sexism and misogyny of other countries, but they are oblivious about their own. It was the "enligthened" and "progressive" western countries who started with the ideas of "sex is a spectrum", "TWAW", and "sex work is work" after all. Yet many of those people have the need to act as white saviours who could solve all the social issues of foreign countries if not were for the "regressive" natives. The implicit idea is that the locals (all of them) are too stupid, incompetent, corrupt, sexist, racist, or whathever to make social progress on their own.

Gendered pronouns are not needed for this. Words like "man" and "woman" are. Moreover, you can tell how unnecessary gendered pronouns are from the fact that English speakers are still perfectly capable of differentiating and speaking of men and women even outside of third person.

Fine, you and u/Genderbender can have fun convincing the rest of English speakers of not using sexed pronouns. Meanwhile, I'll keep speaking Spanish as I always did. I'm not going to start using made-up pronouns, adjectives, nouns and articles just to please some native English speakers, who may or may not know a word in Spanish.

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (7 children)

we were talking about sexed pronouns and words like aunt.

Pronouns do not have sex (in fact, 5 out of 6 personal pronouns don't). "Women" and "men" do.

They can easily point out the sexism and misogyny of other countries, but they are oblivious about their own

The person was literally saying this should apply to languages in general. People constantly criticise the dehumanisation, exclusion, abuse etc. that women put up with in their own culture, and want women to enjoy equal rights everywhere, regardless of culture.

sexism and misogyny exists in virtually every culture.

And yet it was only modern Western countries that have made any real strides in regards to pushing back against it, way beyond any other culture so far. So, miss me with that "cultural relativism" patriarchy apologia. I don't give a damn what repetitive misogynistic crap some group of people has arbitrarily decided is going to be their "heritage" or "tradition", I give a damn about ending the patriarchy.

It was the "enligthened" and "progressive" western countries who started with the ideas of "sex is a spectrum", "TWAW", and "sex work is work" after all.

And according to your cultural relativism, any dumb shit is equally valid as long as a culture forms around it. Yeah, no thanks.

[–]BiologyIsReal 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Pronouns do not have sex (in fact, 5 out of 6 personal pronouns don't). "Women" and "men" do.

You know exactly what I meant...

The person was literally saying this should apply to languages in general. People constantly criticise the dehumanisation, exclusion, abuse etc. that women put up with in their own culture, and want women to enjoy equal rights everywhere, regardless of culture.

And yet it was only modern Western countries that have made any real strides in regards to pushing back against it, way beyond any other culture so far. So, miss me with that "cultural relativism" patriarchy apologia. I don't give a damn what repetitive misogynistic crap some group of people has arbitrarily decided is going to be their "heritage" or "tradition", I give a damn about ending the patriarchy.

And according to your cultural relativism, any dumb shit is equally valid as long as a culture forms around it. Yeah, no thanks.

Show me exactly where the f*** I advocated for moral relativism and excused the misogyny of any country. All I say was every culture, included the developed world is guilty of sexism and misogyny. And that is was the so called western countries who came up with "sex is a spectrum" and "sex work is work" and exported it everywhere they could. And I would add its often the developed countries who used their self-perceived "progressism" to justify their many wars. Perfect way to solve all other countries problems, right? Just kill all those foreign bigots! Women and girls included, because sex equality, you know?

If you think having pronouns that indicate the sex of a person (however you want to call them) is on pair with things like FGM or child marriage we're going to agree to absolutely disagree.

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (5 children)

You know exactly what I meant...

Again, pronouns do not have sex. Is there something unclear about that?

Show me exactly where the f*** I advocated for moral relativism and excused the misogyny of any country.

You're whining about not wanting to change shit in Spanish because "wahwah my language, colonialist white people". I don't give a damn - misogyny is misogyny. Culture is made up bullshit that has always failed women. It gets no respect from me.

All I say was every culture, included the developed world is guilty of sexism and misogyny.

Every culture is misogynistic. The vast majority do not attempt to address this. Feminists criticising other cultures are VERY aware of sexism in their own culture. They also do not have to live in a country or speak its language to use their brains and logical thinking and recognise when misogynistic double standards are in place.

And that is was the so called western countries who came up with "sex is a spectrum" and "sex work is work" and exported it everywhere they could.

So? We are pushing back against that just as we do against any other form of misogyny.

If you think having pronouns that indicate the sex of a person (however you want to call them) is on pair with things like FGM or child marriage we're going to agree to absolutely disagree.

Very feminist to claim that anything short of FMG and child marriage simply doesn't count as misogyny.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You're whining about not wanting to change shit in Spanish because "wahwah my language, colonialist white people".

I'm just a bystander in this particular exchange, but I gotta say that this jumped out at me. Where did u/BiologyIsReal say anything approaching "wahwah my language, colonialist white people"?

Also, isn't Spanish the language that originated in the home country of a whole lot of colonialist white people? Spain, after all, was the country that kicked off the invasion of the "New World," and which ended up colonizing much of the Americas.

[–]BiologyIsReal 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yes, I know perfectly well that pronouns don't have a sex. I am not a savage idiot, you know?

And how the actual f*** having pronouns that indicate the sex of someone is sexist or misogynist?!!!!!

It's very unfortunate for me that I can't say all I'm thinking right now about you misconstructing everything I said while being a mod. So, bye.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (4 children)

I agree with this. Also, in English, an easy way to get around using sexed pronouns is simply to switch from the second to third persons. So instead of writing, A woman... she, write instead, Women...they

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (2 children)

No, I don't think all non-English speakers should think the same, but apparently you do think so given what you have said. You're the one who want to change every language, including all the ones you don't speak to. Don't you think many non-English speakers would have a problem with this idea of getting rid of sex based words? Especially if the person proposing it neither speak their language nor live in their country?

You said "I'd prefer you leave us non-English speakers alone." Who is us? I am also a non-English speaker. I'm sure there are speakers of every language who want to get rid of gendered language, especially non-binary people, who are everywhere.

We're a sexually dismorphic species and sex matters a lot in things like health care, safeguarding, dating, making a family, sports, etcetera. That is why we have words that indicate sex and why is important to recolect data segregated by sex.

There are some areas where sex matters, bu

My former psychology professor told us when we meet someone the 1st thing we as is their gender, to apply stereotypes. For instance, on a parenting forum, an anonymous parent made a post about how they're an attorney and due to their busy work schedule they had no time to spend with their kid which made the kid upset. People kept asking the parent if they were the mother or the father, even though that was irrelevant to the discussion. They clearly wanted to apply stereotypes, that the mother should spend time with the child while it's OK for the father to have a busy work schedule. Same forum, parent posted how their teen didn't want to see their father and didn't like the father's new girlfriend. People kept asking for the gender of the teen, although that was irrelevant to the discussion. I support bringing up gender when it's relevant. You can say "this person at my church..." not "this woman at my church, who is 46, white with brunette hair and green eyes...". You can bring up characteristics when it's necessary.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 6 fun7 insightful - 5 fun8 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

My former psychology professor told us when we meet someone the 1st thing we as is their gender, to apply stereotypes. For instance,

Was your psych professor speaking of when people meet IRL, on anonymously online? Whatever the answer, your professor mistakenly assumes everyone in the world is a genderist. But the fact is, lots of people don't try to scope out other people's gender when meeting for the first time - or later on - coz we don't agree with genderism and we don't go around imposing sexist sex stereotypes on everyone.

Do you and your psych professor assume everyone hurriedly tries to suss out the race, ethnicity, religious backgrounds, politics etc of others we encounter in life so that we can immediately start applying racist, ethnic, religious, political and other stereotypes to them as well?

Also, in the examples you gave, it seems like people were asking for the parent's sex in the first case, and for the child's sex in the second case. People might want to know this NOT coz "they clearly wanted to apply stereotypes" as you assume and assert, but because they might want to be able to inquire about & factor in which kind of sex stereotypes might be at play in the minds of the children in each case. Fact is, lots of parents who don't ascribe to or live according to sex stereotypes themselves, and who did not and do not fill their kids' heads with sex stereotypes at home, often still find that their children have learned many sex stereotypes from other kids, entertainment media and social media - and their kids use those sex stereotypes as the basis for forming expectations and judgments of their own parents and their parents' partners. Moreover, lots of kids with sexist ideas apply double standards to their own parents & parents' partners depending on the sex of the adults involved & of the kids too.

The sex of the parent in the first case and of the child in the second case are actually very relevant to the discussion.

Sounds like that psych prof of yours didn't teach much about psychosexual family dynamics.

[–]BiologyIsReal 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You said "I'd prefer you leave us non-English speakers alone." Who is us? I am also a non-English speaker. I'm sure there are speakers of every language who want to get rid of gendered language, especially non-binary people, who are everywhere.

The us there was more to say I'm a non-native English speaker myself (and that is why I took issue with your comment) rather than to say I speak for every non-English speaker in the world. Also, although I didn't mentioned it before, I'm from and live in a non English speaking country, and that is another part why I disliked your idea of changing other languages as you'd like.

I don't doubt there are some pleople from non English speaking countries that would entertain your idea. The question is wheter are enough of them to make this change in their respectives language a reality. And my feeling is that very likely there aren't. At the end of the day, I think native speakers are the ones who should decide on any change on their languages.