QT/Trans: Trans women say feminism and women's rights should include ALL women, and this means anyone who identifies as a woman. But 99% of women are cis. Why then do trans women not care about the history and rights of 99% of women?

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[–]BiologyIsReal 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

I would also eliminate he and she, and replace them with gender neutral pronouns in every language.

I'd prefer you leave us non-English speakers alone. You keep saying you care about all social issues, not only feminism. If that is the case, then why do you think it's reasonable to expect we modify our own languages just because some native English speakers find unnecssary to distinguish between the sexes? Sorry, but this sound quite colonialist to me.

Besides, what would be the purpose of this change? How would this help to eliminate sex inequalities? Using only gender neutral language means invisibilizing women and women's issues because men are viewed as the default. You'd be only making more difficult to talk about sexism and misogyny.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 3 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 7 fun -  (19 children)

I'd prefer you leave us non-English speakers alone. You keep saying you care about all social issues, not only feminism. If that is the case, then why do you think it's reasonable to expect we modify our own languages just because some native English speakers find unnecssary to distinguish between the sexes? Sorry, but this sound quite colonialist to me.

I'm a non-English speaker myself. My parents are from another country and I speak another language. Я сетим согласна.

This of course will require changes in English as well as other languages. I find it offensive you think all non-English speakers should think the same.

Besides, what would be the purpose of this change? How would this help to eliminate sex inequalities? Using only gender neutral language means invisibilizing women and women's issues because men are viewed as the default. You'd be only making more difficult to talk about sexism and misogyny.

We don't use pronouns based on race or disability, so why use gendered pronouns.

[–]BiologyIsReal 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

I'm a non-English speaker myself. My parents are from another country and I speak another language. Я сетим согласна.

This of course will require changes in English as well as other languages. I find it offensive you think all non-English speakers should think the same.

No, I don't think all non-English speakers should think the same, but apparently you do think so given what you have said. You're the one who want to change every language, including all the ones you don't speak to. Don't you think many non-English speakers would have a problem with this idea of getting rid of sex based words? Especially if the person proposing it neither speak their language nor live in their country?

We don't use pronouns based on race or disability, so why use gendered pronouns.

We're a sexually dismorphic species and sex matters a lot in things like health care, safeguarding, dating, making a family, sports, etcetera. That is why we have words that indicate sex and why is important to recolect data segregated by sex.

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (14 children)

why do you think it's reasonable to expect we modify our own languages just because some native English speakers find unnecssary to distinguish between the sexes?

Not the poster, but because pointless distinctions between the sexes such as third person pronouns are needlessly gendered and originate from the need to exclude women from normal life. I also want all cultures to stop pointlessly separating the sexes as well, and I really don't care how much they claim that misogyny is an integral part of their life and heritage.

Don't you think many non-English speakers would have a problem with this idea of getting rid of sex based words?

People literally always make up a stink over ending sexism. Nothing to see here.

We're a sexually dismorphic species and sex matters a lot in things like health care, safeguarding, dating, making a family, sports, etcetera. That is why we have words that indicate sex and why is important to recolect data segregated by sex.

Gendered pronouns are not needed for this. Words like "man" and "woman" are. Moreover, you can tell how unnecessary gendered pronouns are from the fact that English speakers are still perfectly capable of differentiating and speaking of men and women even outside of third person.

[–]BiologyIsReal 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Not the poster, but because pointless distinctions between the sexes such as third person pronouns are needlessly gendered and originate from the need to exclude women from normal life. I also want all cultures to stop pointlessly separating the sexes as well, and I really don't care how much they claim that misogyny is an integral part of their life and heritage.

People literally always make up a stink over ending sexism. Nothing to see here.

Way to completely miss my point... You make it sound like if we were talking about something like child marriage or FGM when, in fact, we were talking about sexed pronouns and words like aunt. You know, something that for most people is NOT a issue in the slightest.

This is not going to be a popular opinion, but sexism and misogyny exists in virtually every culture. Lots of people from developed countries like to see themselves as "progressive" and "more advanced" in social issues than the rest of the world. They can easily point out the sexism and misogyny of other countries, but they are oblivious about their own. It was the "enligthened" and "progressive" western countries who started with the ideas of "sex is a spectrum", "TWAW", and "sex work is work" after all. Yet many of those people have the need to act as white saviours who could solve all the social issues of foreign countries if not were for the "regressive" natives. The implicit idea is that the locals (all of them) are too stupid, incompetent, corrupt, sexist, racist, or whathever to make social progress on their own.

Gendered pronouns are not needed for this. Words like "man" and "woman" are. Moreover, you can tell how unnecessary gendered pronouns are from the fact that English speakers are still perfectly capable of differentiating and speaking of men and women even outside of third person.

Fine, you and u/Genderbender can have fun convincing the rest of English speakers of not using sexed pronouns. Meanwhile, I'll keep speaking Spanish as I always did. I'm not going to start using made-up pronouns, adjectives, nouns and articles just to please some native English speakers, who may or may not know a word in Spanish.

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (7 children)

we were talking about sexed pronouns and words like aunt.

Pronouns do not have sex (in fact, 5 out of 6 personal pronouns don't). "Women" and "men" do.

They can easily point out the sexism and misogyny of other countries, but they are oblivious about their own

The person was literally saying this should apply to languages in general. People constantly criticise the dehumanisation, exclusion, abuse etc. that women put up with in their own culture, and want women to enjoy equal rights everywhere, regardless of culture.

sexism and misogyny exists in virtually every culture.

And yet it was only modern Western countries that have made any real strides in regards to pushing back against it, way beyond any other culture so far. So, miss me with that "cultural relativism" patriarchy apologia. I don't give a damn what repetitive misogynistic crap some group of people has arbitrarily decided is going to be their "heritage" or "tradition", I give a damn about ending the patriarchy.

It was the "enligthened" and "progressive" western countries who started with the ideas of "sex is a spectrum", "TWAW", and "sex work is work" after all.

And according to your cultural relativism, any dumb shit is equally valid as long as a culture forms around it. Yeah, no thanks.

[–]BiologyIsReal 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Pronouns do not have sex (in fact, 5 out of 6 personal pronouns don't). "Women" and "men" do.

You know exactly what I meant...

The person was literally saying this should apply to languages in general. People constantly criticise the dehumanisation, exclusion, abuse etc. that women put up with in their own culture, and want women to enjoy equal rights everywhere, regardless of culture.

And yet it was only modern Western countries that have made any real strides in regards to pushing back against it, way beyond any other culture so far. So, miss me with that "cultural relativism" patriarchy apologia. I don't give a damn what repetitive misogynistic crap some group of people has arbitrarily decided is going to be their "heritage" or "tradition", I give a damn about ending the patriarchy.

And according to your cultural relativism, any dumb shit is equally valid as long as a culture forms around it. Yeah, no thanks.

Show me exactly where the f*** I advocated for moral relativism and excused the misogyny of any country. All I say was every culture, included the developed world is guilty of sexism and misogyny. And that is was the so called western countries who came up with "sex is a spectrum" and "sex work is work" and exported it everywhere they could. And I would add its often the developed countries who used their self-perceived "progressism" to justify their many wars. Perfect way to solve all other countries problems, right? Just kill all those foreign bigots! Women and girls included, because sex equality, you know?

If you think having pronouns that indicate the sex of a person (however you want to call them) is on pair with things like FGM or child marriage we're going to agree to absolutely disagree.

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (5 children)

You know exactly what I meant...

Again, pronouns do not have sex. Is there something unclear about that?

Show me exactly where the f*** I advocated for moral relativism and excused the misogyny of any country.

You're whining about not wanting to change shit in Spanish because "wahwah my language, colonialist white people". I don't give a damn - misogyny is misogyny. Culture is made up bullshit that has always failed women. It gets no respect from me.

All I say was every culture, included the developed world is guilty of sexism and misogyny.

Every culture is misogynistic. The vast majority do not attempt to address this. Feminists criticising other cultures are VERY aware of sexism in their own culture. They also do not have to live in a country or speak its language to use their brains and logical thinking and recognise when misogynistic double standards are in place.

And that is was the so called western countries who came up with "sex is a spectrum" and "sex work is work" and exported it everywhere they could.

So? We are pushing back against that just as we do against any other form of misogyny.

If you think having pronouns that indicate the sex of a person (however you want to call them) is on pair with things like FGM or child marriage we're going to agree to absolutely disagree.

Very feminist to claim that anything short of FMG and child marriage simply doesn't count as misogyny.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You're whining about not wanting to change shit in Spanish because "wahwah my language, colonialist white people".

I'm just a bystander in this particular exchange, but I gotta say that this jumped out at me. Where did u/BiologyIsReal say anything approaching "wahwah my language, colonialist white people"?

Also, isn't Spanish the language that originated in the home country of a whole lot of colonialist white people? Spain, after all, was the country that kicked off the invasion of the "New World," and which ended up colonizing much of the Americas.

[–]BiologyIsReal 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That is right. There has been a discussion in Spanish speaking coutries for a while about sexism in the language. But, I think that is something that native speakers should decide, that is all.

By the way, I'm white too, as my skin is white, though wheter Americans would consider someone from Latin America like myself as white I don't know.

[–]adungitit 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

By arguing that "white people" criticising misogynistic norms in other cultures and languages are doing so for colonialist purposes.

And yes, the irony of the colonialist history of Spain kinda flew over their head, likely because they're speaking from a Latin American perspective.

[–]BiologyIsReal 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yes, I know perfectly well that pronouns don't have a sex. I am not a savage idiot, you know?

And how the actual f*** having pronouns that indicate the sex of someone is sexist or misogynist?!!!!!

It's very unfortunate for me that I can't say all I'm thinking right now about you misconstructing everything I said while being a mod. So, bye.

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 7 fun4 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

And how the actual f*** having pronouns that indicate the sex of someone is sexist or misogynist?!!!!!

It serves literally no purpose than to needlessly separate the language that the sexes can use, and this is always in favour of men. These languages are always androcentric, and the indoctrination that men are human and women are subhuman starts early.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (4 children)

I agree with this. Also, in English, an easy way to get around using sexed pronouns is simply to switch from the second to third persons. So instead of writing, A woman... she, write instead, Women...they

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (2 children)

No, I don't think all non-English speakers should think the same, but apparently you do think so given what you have said. You're the one who want to change every language, including all the ones you don't speak to. Don't you think many non-English speakers would have a problem with this idea of getting rid of sex based words? Especially if the person proposing it neither speak their language nor live in their country?

You said "I'd prefer you leave us non-English speakers alone." Who is us? I am also a non-English speaker. I'm sure there are speakers of every language who want to get rid of gendered language, especially non-binary people, who are everywhere.

We're a sexually dismorphic species and sex matters a lot in things like health care, safeguarding, dating, making a family, sports, etcetera. That is why we have words that indicate sex and why is important to recolect data segregated by sex.

There are some areas where sex matters, bu

My former psychology professor told us when we meet someone the 1st thing we as is their gender, to apply stereotypes. For instance, on a parenting forum, an anonymous parent made a post about how they're an attorney and due to their busy work schedule they had no time to spend with their kid which made the kid upset. People kept asking the parent if they were the mother or the father, even though that was irrelevant to the discussion. They clearly wanted to apply stereotypes, that the mother should spend time with the child while it's OK for the father to have a busy work schedule. Same forum, parent posted how their teen didn't want to see their father and didn't like the father's new girlfriend. People kept asking for the gender of the teen, although that was irrelevant to the discussion. I support bringing up gender when it's relevant. You can say "this person at my church..." not "this woman at my church, who is 46, white with brunette hair and green eyes...". You can bring up characteristics when it's necessary.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 6 fun7 insightful - 5 fun8 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

My former psychology professor told us when we meet someone the 1st thing we as is their gender, to apply stereotypes. For instance,

Was your psych professor speaking of when people meet IRL, on anonymously online? Whatever the answer, your professor mistakenly assumes everyone in the world is a genderist. But the fact is, lots of people don't try to scope out other people's gender when meeting for the first time - or later on - coz we don't agree with genderism and we don't go around imposing sexist sex stereotypes on everyone.

Do you and your psych professor assume everyone hurriedly tries to suss out the race, ethnicity, religious backgrounds, politics etc of others we encounter in life so that we can immediately start applying racist, ethnic, religious, political and other stereotypes to them as well?

Also, in the examples you gave, it seems like people were asking for the parent's sex in the first case, and for the child's sex in the second case. People might want to know this NOT coz "they clearly wanted to apply stereotypes" as you assume and assert, but because they might want to be able to inquire about & factor in which kind of sex stereotypes might be at play in the minds of the children in each case. Fact is, lots of parents who don't ascribe to or live according to sex stereotypes themselves, and who did not and do not fill their kids' heads with sex stereotypes at home, often still find that their children have learned many sex stereotypes from other kids, entertainment media and social media - and their kids use those sex stereotypes as the basis for forming expectations and judgments of their own parents and their parents' partners. Moreover, lots of kids with sexist ideas apply double standards to their own parents & parents' partners depending on the sex of the adults involved & of the kids too.

The sex of the parent in the first case and of the child in the second case are actually very relevant to the discussion.

Sounds like that psych prof of yours didn't teach much about psychosexual family dynamics.

[–]BiologyIsReal 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You said "I'd prefer you leave us non-English speakers alone." Who is us? I am also a non-English speaker. I'm sure there are speakers of every language who want to get rid of gendered language, especially non-binary people, who are everywhere.

The us there was more to say I'm a non-native English speaker myself (and that is why I took issue with your comment) rather than to say I speak for every non-English speaker in the world. Also, although I didn't mentioned it before, I'm from and live in a non English speaking country, and that is another part why I disliked your idea of changing other languages as you'd like.

I don't doubt there are some pleople from non English speaking countries that would entertain your idea. The question is wheter are enough of them to make this change in their respectives language a reality. And my feeling is that very likely there aren't. At the end of the day, I think native speakers are the ones who should decide on any change on their languages.