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[–]adungitit 10 insightful - 7 fun10 insightful - 6 fun11 insightful - 7 fun -  (3 children)

it seems like there's a lack of empathy on the part of transwomen in these scenarios

There is as much empathy in them as there is in your average man. It is indeed a lack of empathy, but a normal and expected one.

it seems like there's a lack of empathy on the part of transwomen in these scenarios

They think the same about women. Because women do not want to give up their hard-won rights and go against their better judgement and safety measures when it comes to male trans people, they are labelled as cruel and inconsiderate. The exact same approach is visible in the reaction to feminism in general: the fact that women push for their rights and reject misogynistic norms that men want to keep in place is constantly characterised as hateful, misandrist and supremacist. This has been the normal reaction for as long as feminism has existed. Appeals for women to centre everyone's needs but women's and to deal with being dehumanised and subjugated because "men will feel bad otherwise :,(" have always been a part of the patriarchy, because women exist as secondary characters for the benefit of someone more important and more human.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

the fact that women push for their rights and reject misogynistic norms that men want to keep in place is constantly characterised as hateful, misandrist and supremacist. This has been the normal reaction for as long as feminism has existed.

I just want to point out that this has been "the normal reaction for as long as feminism has existed" only in some circles. In my own lifetime (born mid-1950s) there has been a sea change in prevailing attitudes towards feminism (genuine feminism, not fauxminism of the libfems), and the change has been for the worse. Dramatically so.

In the late 1960s and especially in the 70s and 80s but also through the 90s, when women would "push for our rights and reject misogynistic norms" we were not "constantly characterized as hateful, misandrist and supremacist." On the contrary, many of us were applauded and admired, and invited to write articles and books, give talks and appear on mainstream media. At least this was the case in the US where I mostly live(d).

Yes, some people back then called outspoken feminists "man haters," said we were out to "destroy the family," wanted to "lord it over" men, opined that our "real problem" was that we couldn't get laid or hadn't met the right guy, dismissed us as "granola-eating lesbian cranks" and "ugly bull dxkes with hairy armpits" and said much worse about us too such as calling us "femiNazis." But this was not the prevailing view across all of US society - and I'd even go so far as to say it wasn't the dominant view, either. Particularly amongst those privileged enough to have gotten college/uni degrees but also to a great extent amongst a lot of working class people, especially WC women, it was widely taken as a given that of course a lot of women would push for our rights and reject misogynistic norms - and we weren't demonized or dehumanized for doing so the way we routinely are by supposedly progressive, inclusive, tolerant "polite society" today.

Women back then were dehumanized and demonized in all the traditional ways for all the traditional reasons. We were reduced to sex objects and to use today's terminology "cum dumps;" regarded socially, legally & financially as the property of men; depicted as empty-headed bimbos good for nothing except fucking, making babies & keeping house; relegated to second-class status in pretty much every situation; and blamed whenever anything bad happened, including for all the violence, abuse and discrimination men committed against us. But back then there was no widespread, super popular cultural trend of dehumanizing and demonizing us simply for standing up for our rights and rejecting misogyny the way there is today when women who don't center men in our feminism are derided as TERFs.

Today, feminists who don't go along with trans dogma & parrot the lie that TWAW are routinely subjected to the most vile abuse, actively silenced and made pariahs not just by fringe activists and their groups, but by major institutions like universities, libraries, corporations, charities, the UN, the centrist & "leftwing" political parties, many governments and arms of government, book publishers, most of the mass media and nearly all the big players in social media such as FB, Twitter, Instagram, TikTok and the controllers of info on the internet such as Google and Wikipedia. Back in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s, women didn't risk losing our jobs, having our contracts cancelled, being hauled before disciplinary committees, being denied financial and business services, being banned from public platforms or getting visited by the police or arrested for standing up for our rights, demanding female sports and spaces, vocally opposing misogyny, pointing out the biological differences between the sexes or laughing at the absurd notion that men can become women through use of hormones & cosmetic surgeries and coz some men say so.

Moreover, in the 70s and 80s and the 90s, establishment institutions like the Democratic party and the ACLU as well as women's organizations like American Association of University Women, NOW, NARAL, and the National Center for Lesbian Rights were all for women's rights, as were major media outlets like PBS and the NY Times - or at least they all still gave lip service to the idea of women's rights.

A good illustration comes from the glowing review by Thomas Szasz of Janice Raymond's The Transsexual Empire that the NYTimes published in 1979. I'll C+P the text in another post. https://www.nytimes.com/1979/06/10/archives/male-and-female-created-he-them-transexual.html

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Review of Janice Raymond's The Transsexual Empire by Thomas Szasz, MD published in the NY Times, June 10, 1979:

IN the old days, when I was a medical student, if a man wanted to have his penis amputated, my psychology professors said that he suffered from schizophrenia, locked him up in an asylum and threw away the key. Now that I am a professor, my colleagues in psychiatry say that he is a “transsexual,” my colleagues in urology refashion his penis into a perineal cavity they call a vagina, and Time magazine puts him on its cover and calls him “her.” Anyone who doubts that this is progress is considered to be ignorant of the discoveries of modern psychiatric sexology, and a political reactionary, a sexual bigot, or something equally unflattering.

Like much of the medical‐psychiatric mendacity characteristic of our day, the official definition “transsexualism” as a disease comes down to the strategic abuse of language — epitomized by confusing and equating biological phenomena with social roles (in the present case, chromosomal sexual identity with acting as a man or a woman). Although there are connections between these concepts and facts, neither one “causes'.’ or “determines” the other.

Because “transsexualism” involves, is indeed virtually synonymous with, extensive surgical alterations of the “normal” human body, we might ask what would happen, say, to a man who went to an orthopedic surgeon, told him that he felt like a right‐handed person trapped in an ambidextrous body and asked the doctor to cut off his perfectly healthy left arm? What would happen to a man who went to a urologist, told him that he felt like a Christian trapped in a Jewish body, and asked him to re‐cover the glans of his penis with foreskin? (Such an operation may be alluded to in I Corinthians, 7:17‐18.)

“But,” the medically informed reader might object, “isn't transsexualism a disease? Isn't it — in the grandly deceptive phrase of the American psychiatric establishment used to characterize all ‘mental diseases’ — ‘just like any other illness'?” No, it is not. The transsexual male is indistinguishable from other males, save by his desire to be a woman. ("He is a woman trapped in a man's body” is the standard rhetorical form of this claim.) If such a desire qualifies as a disease, transforming the desiring agent into a “transsexual,” then the old person who wants to be young is a “transchronological,” the poor person who wants to be rich is a “transeconomical,” and so on. Such hypothetical claims and the requests for “therapy” based on them (together with our cognitive and medical responses to them) frame, in my opinion, the proper background against which our contemporary beliefs and practices concerning “transsexualism” and transsexual “therapy” ought to be viewed.

Clearly, not all desires are authenticated in our society as diseases. Why the desire for a change in sex roles is so authenticated is analyzed with great sensitivity and skill by Janice Raymond in “The Transsexual Empire.” Arguing that “medicine and psychology ... function as secular religions in the area of transsexualism,” she demonstrates that this “condition” is now accepted as a disease because advances in the technology of sex‐conversion surgery have made certain alterations in the human genitals possible and because such operations reiterate and reinforce traditional patriarchal sex‐role expectations and stereotypes. Ostensibly, the “transsexers” (from psychologists to urologists) are curing a disease; actually, they engage in the religious and political shaping and controling of “masculine” and “feminine” behavior. Miss Raymond's development and documentation of this thesis is flawless. Her book Is an important achievement.

The claim that males can be transformed, by means of hormones and surgery, into females, and vice versa, is, of course, a lie. ("She‐males” are fabricated in much greater numbers than “he‐females.") Chromosomal sex is fixed. And so are one's historical experiences of growing up and living as boy or girl, man or woman. What, then, can be achieved by means of “transsexual therapy"? The language in which the reply is framed is crucial — and can never be neutral. The transsexual propagandists claim to transform “women trapped in men's bodies” into “real” women and want then to be accepted socially as females (say, in professional tennis). Critics of transsexualism contend that such a person is a “male‐to‐constructed‐female” (Miss Raymond's term), or a fake female, or a castrated male transvestite who wears not only feminine clothing but also feminine‐looking body parts. Miss Raymond quotes a Casablanca surgeon, who has operated on more than 700 American men, characterizing the transsexual transformation as follows: “I don't change men into women. I transform male genitals into genitals that have a female aspect. All the rest is in the patient's mind ".

Not quite. Some of the rest is in society's “mind.” For the fact is that Renee Richards was endorsed by Billie Jean King as a real woman and was accepted by the authorities monitoring women's professional tennis as a “real woman.” This authentication of a “constructed female” as a real female stands in dramatic contrast to the standard rules of Olympic competition in which the contestants’ bodily contours count for nothing, their sexual identity being based solely on their chromosomal makeup.

Miss Raymond has rightly seized on transsexualism as an emblem of modern society's unremitting — though increasingly concealed — antifeminism. And she correctly emphasizes that “the terminology of transsexualism disguises the reality ... that transsexuals ‘prove’ they are transsexuals by conforming to the canons of the medical‐psychiatric institution that evaluates them on the basis of their being able to pass as stereotypically masculine or feminine, and that ultimately grants surgery on this basis.” The “transsexual empire” is thus a Trojan horse in the battle between the sexes, helping men to seduce unsuspecting women, or women who ought to know better, to join forces with their oppressors.

Still, why should anyone (especially feminist women) object to men wanting to become women? Isn't imitation the highest form of flattery? Precisely herein lies the “liberal” sexologists’ betrayal of human dignity and integrity: They support the (male) transsexual's claim that he wants to be a woman — when, in fact, what he wants is to be a caricature of the male definition of “femininity.” What makes transsexual surgery a male‐supremacist obscenity is the fact that transsexing surgeons do not perform the operation on all clients (just for the money) but insist that the client prove that he can “pass” as a woman. That is as if Catholic priests were willing to convert only those Jews who could prove their Christianity by socially appropriate acts of antiSemitism. Janice Raymond's analysis is bitterly correct. The very existence of the “transsexual empire” is evidence of the persistence of our deep‐seated religious and cultural prejudices against woman.

The war between the sexes is a part of our, human heritage. It's no use denying It. If that war ever ends, it will be not because of a phony armistice arranged by doctors, but because men, women and children will place personal dignity before social sex‐role identity.

https://www.nytimes.com/1979/06/10/archives/male-and-female-created-he-them-transexual.html

That review reflected what were pretty mainstream views in the USA 42 years ago. Today, not only would no establishment press outlet even consider publishing it, but it would be widely condemned as hate speech.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)