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[–]HeimdeklediROAR 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (18 children)

You do know that there are QT people like myself who would prefer the abolition of gender, yes? QT != pro-gender anymore than being married == pro-marriage.

[–]BiologyIsReal 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

If there were no gender roles, then what trans people would use as point of reference for their identities. If you reject both a biological based and gender roles based definition of woman and man, then what makes you a man or a woman?

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (16 children)

They wouldn’t identify with gender labels they would just prefer different biologies with no social meaning attached

[–][deleted] 11 insightful - 6 fun11 insightful - 5 fun12 insightful - 6 fun -  (15 children)

Why would they need to prefer that, though?

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (14 children)

Because humans posess that instinct

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 6 fun -  (13 children)

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but do you mean the instinct to prefer different biologies? If so, to what end is the preference?

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (12 children)

Its not just that, its more like an instinct to identify with a group based on observable sex traits and to then normalize some sort of appearance standards for your own self based off of that criteria. In the wild, we naturally see these sorts of sex trait groups form among chimps and bonobos so it doesn’t seem odd to think that some sort of modified group instinct is operating and creating a sort of instinctual sameness between members of a group that posess similar sex traits

[–]adungitit 17 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

an instinct to identify with a group based on observable sex traits

So...once again we end up with gender roles, except in more words.

normalize some sort of appearance standards for your own self based off of that criteria

Like...the whole point of feminism is not to do that. Women have nothing to "normalise" themselves according to; they're women regardless of whether they feel like women, whether they enjoy being women or whether they relate to being women. They're female when they're unconscious, when they're dead, when they're infants. The fact that the patriarchy has decided a "woman" is akin to a walking blowup doll or a type of brain you have is a PROBLEM, not a fun thing to validate your gender with. Remove that, and women are still women - male trans people are not.

we naturally see these sorts of sex trait groups form among chimps and bonobos

Oh ffs, here we go again...

it doesn’t seem odd to think that some sort of modified group instinct is operating and creating a sort of instinctual sameness between members of a group that posess similar sex traits

Lovely. Bioessentialism supports patriarchy because chimps, and if women are getting screwed over by it, they should just comfort themselves knowing their gender is being validated by these groupings.

creating a sort of instinctual sameness between members of a group that posess similar sex traits

"It's not gender roles, guise! It's something different that's exactly the same, except not called that!"

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So the sexed-linked behaviors of primates "in the wild" such as chimps is based on "appearance standards"? When it comes to "observable sex traits," the cues other primates rely on are principally visual? I though the old saw about primates across the board trading in smell for sight over the course of evolution has proven not to be true after all.

Primates, including humans, are usually thought of as visual animals with reduced reliance on the sense of smell. In behavioral experiments, biologists have now found that chimpanzees use olfaction as a prime mode of investigation, and that they recognize group members and kin using olfactory cues.

Human scientists who've found that smell is chimps' "go-to" sense that they most rely on to observe other chimps "in the wild" have speculated that

"Odor might be especially important because most chimpanzees live in dense forests where visibility is low, and because in chimpanzee societies, group members split up into subgroups that may not see each other for days"

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/10/181024083346.htm#:~:text=Primates%2C%20including%20humans%2C%20are%20usually,and%20kin%

It's interesting that you feel comfortable making generalizations about bonobos, particularly "in the wild," when primatologists call them "the forgotten ape" and most of what is known about them comes from observing them in captivity. Little is known about how they behave in their native habitat:

Wild bonobos can only be found in forests south of the Congo River in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC). Sometimes known as the pygmy chimpanzee, bonobos weren’t recognized as a separate species until 1929. As the last great ape to be scientifically described, much remains unknown about the bonobo—including the extent of its geographic range. Efforts to survey the species over the past two decades have been hampered by the remote nature of its habitat, the patchiness of their distribution and years of civil unrest within the DRC. https://www.worldwildlife.org/species/bonobo

What little research has been done on bonobos "in the wild" unfortunately has been done by human observers, such as wildlife photographer Frans de Waal, author of the 1998 book The Forgotten Ape, who to a man (LOL) have consistently projected their own feelings, perceptions and motivations onto bonobos, ascribing human characteristics and psychology to them. To wit:

When the lively, penetrating eyes lock with ours and challenge us to reveal who we are, we know right away that we are not looking at a "mere" animal, but at a creature of considerable intellect with a secure sense of its place in the world. We are meeting a member of the same tailless, flat-chasted, long-armed primate family to which we ourselves and only a handful of other species belong. We feel the age-old connection before we can stop to think, as people are wont to do, how different we are.

Bonobos will not let us indulge in this thought for long: in everything they do, they resemble us. A complaining youngster will pout his lips like an unhappy child or stretch out an open hand to beg for food. In the midst of sexual intercourse, a female may squeal with apparent pleasure. And at play, bonobos utter coarse laughs when their partners tickle their bellies or armpits. There is no escape, we are looking at an animal so akin to ourselves that the dividing line is seriously blurred.

https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/first/d/dewaal-bonobo.html

The attitude that human males like de Waal have toward bonobos is very similar to the attitude many men, particularly genderists, have towards women.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 6 fun8 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 6 fun -  (8 children)

It makes sense if you already were a member of that sex, but it doesn't if you aren't. The only way might be for a person with some kind of gender dysphoria, but that seems unlikely it would only be about observable sex traits.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (7 children)

The instinct to imprint onto a sex trait group would function regardless of one’s own observable sex traits at least for a time. Infants can discern sex trait differences in their parents at something like 18 months and who knows when the imprinting begins

[–]MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Infants can discern sex trait differences in their parents at something like 18 months

Infants can distinguish between their parents much earlier than that, LOL. An infant recognizes mom's voice, smell, the way her skin feels, the sound of her heartbeat from the start - and infants who have close physical with their dads can distinguish dad's voice, smell, skin feel and heartbeat sounds/pace from mom's coz these are very different in myriad ways.

But that doesn't mean children - whatever their age - automatically make all the exact same sexist stereotyped assumptions that you believe they must make. When my own kids were toddlers, for example, they thought only men can cook and hammers were tools that "ladies use."

Also, just FYI, when speaking of what happens during the various stages of child development, no one familiar with the field would call a child of 18 months an infant. They'd say toddler instead.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

This sounds like some patriarchical BS, that gender stereotypes are biological and instincitve.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That is possibly the least sensible cluster of words I’ve ever seen.

Explain like I’m five.