you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

gender abolition would change all of society, in theory.

I don't think anyone "gender critical" thinks the abolition of the sex stereotypes and other sexist ideas and beliefs that constitute "gender" is a realistic or achievable end goal. Or, for that matter, even a desirable one. We are arguing against forcing everyone in society to have to accept and adhere to the strict, deeply regressive and sexist sex stereotypes that genderists hold dear. And we are against the basic tenet of Genderology which says that whether a human being is male or female, boy or girl, man or woman, is not determined by the person's biology, but by his or her level of perceived "masculinity" or "femininity" and which - if any - sex stereotypes he or she hews to and prefers.

Most people who are "gender critical" are not saying that genderists should not be allowed to have their sexist beliefs and to cleave to sexist sex stereotypes and judge themselves and others by sexist standards. We just don't think their sexist beliefs, stereotypes and standards should be imposed on all of society, forced down children's throats and made into the de facto state religion that everyone is expected to follow and no one is allowed to challenge.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 5 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 6 fun -  (4 children)

I don't think anyone "gender critical" thinks the abolition of the sex stereotypes and other sexist ideas and beliefs that constitute "gender" is a realistic or achievable end goal. Or, for that matter, even a desirable one.

I'm confused by this because "abolish gender" is practically the gender critical slogan.

How could radical feminists see the abolition of the "sex stereotypes and other sexist ideas" as undesirable?

We are arguing against forcing everyone in society to have to accept and adhere to the strict, deeply regressive and sexist sex stereotypes that genderists hold dear.

You don't want everyone in society to have to accept and adhere to strict, deeply regressive and sexist sex stereotypes that would be undesirable to abolish?

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I'm confused by this because "abolish gender" is practically the gender critical slogan.

Really? Then why is it called "gender critical" rather than "gender abolitionist"? I guess I should have been more precise and said that I don't think any of the "gender critical" people I know and those who post here would say abolition is a realistic, achievable or desirable end goal.

In answer to your question: I think a society without strict, deeply regressive sex stereotypes would be a good thing - but I don't believe in getting there by trying to abolish them or through abolition. Abolish means to

formally put an end to (a system, practice, or institution).

Abolition means

the action or an act of abolishing a system, practice, or institution.

Both words come from the Latin word meaning to destroy.

In my view, abolition would mean action from a government or another authority (like a religious leader issuing a fatwa or papal edict) to make something illegal. With practices like slavery, child labor, apartheid, criminalization of homosexual sex, I think abolition can work and has worked.

But sex stereotypes are ideas that exist in people's heads and which speak to something in their hearts. IMO, it would be a very bad move for any government or other authority to pass measures meant to make it illegal for people to have particular thoughts, feelings and ideas. And doing so would inevitably backfire. Coz nothing is more ineluctably alluring than that which is forbidden.

I think anti-discrimination laws and other measures can go - and have gone - a long way towards getting rid of practices based on rigid, regressive sexist sex stereotypes. For example, it used to be that it was legal to fire women from their jobs once they married or got pregnant, to not allow women to apply for certain jobs, to limit the number of women allowed in certain professions or to bar them entirely, and to refuse to provide bank loans, mortgages and credit cards to women unless they had male guarantors co-sign for them. Making those practices illegal helped to eliminate them. However, I think it would be foolish and way, way too authoritarian to try to make it illegal for anyone to have any of the ideas used to justify and rationalize such practices - such as married women & moms shouldn't work outside the home, women aren't equipped to be firefighters or stevedores, women aren't suited to surgery or engineering, women can't handle or understand money. I think those ideas are silly, insulting and can be harmful if taught to children and turned into practice - so I think it's reasonable to bar them from being taught in public schools and to be used as the basis for public policies. But I don't think it's the place of government - or people who share my views - to tell adults they can't believe in those ideas, that they can't express those ideas, and that they're not allowed to communicate those ideas to their own kids.

Moreover, I'm keenly aware that the way people in the past made the greatest social progress in women's rights, civil rights and gay rights was by making arguments - not by decreeing that sexism, racism and homophobia are now verboten or illegal. And I'm also aware that radical efforts "to destroy" what exists in one fell swoop in an effort to create an ideal society don't work. Sometimes they have tragic and truly horrific consequences, as in the USSR, the Third Reich, the Iron Curtain, North Korea, China, Chile and Cambodia in the 1970s. And even when extreme measures like diktats, revolutions and warfare work, they usually only go so far. In the US, the Emancipation Proclamation, Civil War and a constitutional amendment were effective in putting an end to (most) slavery, but eliminating the ideas that led to slavery, justified it and allowed it to continue is another matter for the much longer haul.

In short, my view is that any society where certain ideas are not allowed to be thought is a tyranny. I have always objected to strict, deeply regressive and sexist sex stereotypes and made efforts in a variety of ways towards reducing, eliminating and laughing at them. But I don't think it's desirable to attempt to abolish them because doing so would mean taking measures to control what other people are allowed to think, feel and dream about. Enough societies have tried that sort of thing already, and it has never worked out well.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Really? Then why is it called "gender critical" rather than "gender abolitionist"?

https://wildwomynworkshop.com/store/badges/badges-25-mm/abolish-gender-25mm-feminist-button-badge/

Its not like I made it up. It's common position from gc. However I do see descent on it and there are a range of opinions in gc. It would be nice to formalise that in order to understand the arguments.

In short, my view is that any society where certain ideas are not allowed to be thought is a tyranny. I have always objected to strict, deeply regressive and sexist sex stereotypes and made efforts in a variety of ways towards reducing, eliminating and laughing at them. But I don't think it's desirable to attempt to abolish them because doing so would mean taking measures to control what other people are allowed to think, feel and dream about. Enough societies have tried that sort of thing already, and it has never worked out well.

OK thanks I think I get the idea now.

Government laws and interventions on gender to force it would be bad and coercive.

But leaving the state aside I'm still not clear on what your preference is.

That there would be no "stereotypes" ?

I have to be honest a lot of this seems like a logic trap, such that male stereotypes are viewed as good unless it's a toxic male and all female stereotypes are bad unless its the right kind of woman.

Stereotypes seems like another term for gender norms. Surely they change, but at its heart society doesn't seem to really want to get rid of them all. It might want "freedom" but there are enough biases remaining to count as soft social enforcement. That can come from the majority of people being conforming, even if they are liberal on non conformists.

Likewise most people opposed to trans ideology don't actually want a world without social gender, most of the behavioural aspects of gender.

Which takes us back to the question of what gc actually wants because this isn't all about trans people.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Its not like I made it up. It's common position from gc.

As proof you link to a website of selling handmade buttons, one of which says "abolish gender."

I have nothing to do with that website. I don't agree with every idea the woman who owns & runs it has put on her buttons. I don't agree with how she chooses to spell the word woman, in fact.

However I do see descent on it and there are a range of opinions in gc. It would be nice to formalise that in order to understand the arguments.

I dunno who this "gc" is. Lots of diverse people criticize, challenge and oppose sexism and sex stereotypes. We are not a hive mind. If you want to "formalize" what you think the "gc" view is, have at it. Me, I'm not interested.

I have to be honest a lot of this seems like a logic trap, such that male stereotypes are viewed as good unless it's a toxic male and all female stereotypes are bad unless its the right kind of woman.

WTF? Talk about titling at windmills. You're shadow boxing with some figment of your imagination that has nothing to do with me or anything I've said. The stereotypes "toxic male" and "right kind of woman" are not ones to which I ascribe. You should have stopped with

OK thanks I think I get the idea now.

Government laws and interventions on gender to force it would be bad and coercive.

The remainder of your post is just you making unsubstantiated speculations in which you attribute to me views that I have not expressed, do not hold and have not intimated that I might hold.

You seem to have issues with reading comprehension. When posters very clearly say one thing, you respond as though we've actually said something quite different. Reminds me of the famous Cathy Newman tactic: what you really seem to be saying is... It's as if your go-to stance is to conclude that what others say can't really be what we actually mean, but you know what we really mean coz of some magical powers of clairvoyance.

So to reiterate:

Making observations about religions is not the same as dismissing religions.

Being critical of sexism and sexist sex stereotypes is not the same as advocating for authoritarian measures attempting to abolish them.

I am not an authoritarian or utopian. I have no interest in trying to design or dream up what I think an ideal society might be so that I can try to impose it on others and the world by fiat. Anyone with LT experience in politics and social progress in the real world knows the advantages of incrementalism. Also, the perfect is the enemy of the good.

Which takes us back to the question of what gc actually wants because this isn't all about trans people.

No, this takes me to the end of the road in our exchange. I believe you are not engaging in good faith.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

Cathy Newman tactic

To be honest I didn't find Cathy Newman's tactic wrong.

To me it's saying "This is how the views can be interpreted. Here is the model they are being interpreted as by others. Over to you point how they're understanding is wrong." It's just part of debate. Giving a viewpoint on a topic and asking for a response.