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[–]questioningtw[S] 4 insightful - 8 fun4 insightful - 7 fun5 insightful - 8 fun -  (37 children)

I have noticed this too. I don't like GC people that act like literally all lesbian transwomen are perverted fetishists, even if they seem normal. Itis one thing to call out people like Yaviv or Karen White, but acting like all of them are like that is wrong. Usually the more gender non conforming ones are rightfully concerned about how society tries to push this idea that feminine means woman or masculine means man.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If "lesbian transwoman" is not just dating women, but searching specifically lesbians to date (and very upset if woman TW dated was bisexual - I saw this too many times) - then it is 100% fetishism. As if they loved women, they'd loved any women and would not be searching only lesbians for "true and complete validation".

And in general - the whole idea of "lesbian transwomen" is extremely homophobic in its core. It was pushed by homophobic societies in one or another way since forever, lesbians who were forcibly pushed to "date feminine men". And situations like - when just straight men were saying like "I am lesbian too, I will wear a wig and dress, so you should not dismiss me and date me" weren't that rare, I personally lived through such experience.

[–]MarkTwainiac 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

lesbian transwomen

What?

[–]worried19 5 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 5 fun -  (34 children)

On Ovarit, there are a few posters who go way overboard with this. I downvote when they get really over the top.

[–]questioningtw[S] 5 insightful - 7 fun5 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 7 fun -  (33 children)

I do too. I have been downvoted myself for saying that I have no problem with transwomen like Blair White or Natalie Wynn using the women's bathroom, and in fact I think it is pretty shitty telling people that look exactly like women to use the mens.

[–]MarkTwainiac 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I have no problem with transwomen like Blair White or Natalie Wynn using the women's bathroom

What you personally have a problem with is immaterial here. Women's and girls' facilities in schools, workplaces and the public domain are not your personal property and you are not the boss of them. The privacy, dignity, safety and peace of mind of girls and women is not yours to give away. Or for any other males to take or give away.

I think it is pretty shitty telling people that look exactly like women to use the mens

I think your idea that young males who alter their appearance to resemble sexist stereotypes of what some women of their same age group look like somehow have earned the right to use female facilities is pretty shitty too. It reflects views of women and how we should look and be defined that are sexist, superficial, misogynistic and ageist. The idea that BW and Contra "look exactly like women" is insulting to billions of the world's women past and present, most of whom can't afford, have no time for or interest in elaborate makeup routines, hair extensions, fake nails, facial fillers, silicone implants, cosmetic surgeries and spending every waking hour studying or performing mannerisms some men find "feminine" such as head tilting, nail-clicking, hair flicking and acting "girly." And the idea that the best way for same-sex attracted people to deal with their homosexuality or bisexuality is to alter their appearance and adopt a lot of phony, practiced mannerisms in hopes they will convince others to regard them as the opposite sex is homophobic and regressive.

Boys and men are the ones who need to show inclusivity to males who prefer to "present" as BW and Contra do and to welcome them into and help them realize they belong in male loos and other male spaces. It's sexist and male supremacist to say girls and women should have to budge up and sacrifice our safety and privacy to accommodate males like BW and Contra when the fundamental issue is that such males have trouble accepting themselves, see girls and women as sex objects to caricature, and think males' right to do as they wish overrides girls' and women's right to boundaries.

[–]questioningtw[S] 5 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 6 fun -  (5 children)

Ok, but how are you going to gatekeep who uses the woman's room? If you didn't know these people where trans because of youtube, then you would jut see them as other women. Women can have masculine features, in fact there have been natal woman that have been kicked out of the woman's bathroom because they looked "too male"

I also highly disagree with you that Natalie Wynn looks like a man.

[–]MarkTwainiac 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Ok, but how are you going to gatekeep who uses the woman's room? If you didn't know these people where trans because of youtube, then you would jut see them as other women.

Until recently in history, there was no need for "gatekeeping" of women's rooms because sex-segregation in communal toileting was learned early on in life and then self-imposed. Kids were raised to know that once a male child turns 8, he's got to use the facilities for his own sex - and by and large, males across the board kept to this rule. There was no need in the past to post sentries outside of women's restrooms in schools, workplaces and the public sphere - or outside female change rooms, locker rooms, hospital wards etc - coz droves of boys and men on a daily basis weren't trying to enter, use and claim female spaces, and those boys & men that did try to gain access to women's toilets, locker rooms, change rooms, spaces in HCFs etc were widely seen by everyone as either up to no good, or as confused & lost.

It's like anything else in society. When people drive cars, we don't need to have sentries and traffic cops posted every few feet to keep us from straying into oncoming traffic, taking over the bus or bike lane, driving on sidewalks and lawns or putting our foot on the gas and ramming other vehicles, running people over or crashing into buildings. Everyone knows the rules. Everyone knows which lane different vehicles belong in, and for the most part when we are behind the wheel, we all "stay in our lane" - and keep from driving on sidewalks, lawns, footpaths and into buildings too. When in doubt, there are visual cues - lines on the road, signs that say "Bike lane," "HOV only" or "No Trucks over XX weight" - to keep us all in line, as it were. Much like the signs that designate which restrooms are for which sex.

The customary and easiest way to make sure "gatekeeping" of women's toilets happens in a society is to raise children, particularly male children, to show the same awareness of, and respect for, sex differences and the female sex that we teach drivers to have for the various kinds of motor vehicles that use the roads, for the various kinds of spaces - sidewalks, lawns, footpaths, buildings - as well as for pedestrians and users of other kinds of wheeled vehicles (bicycles, skateboards, wheelchairs, prams and strollers, walkers, horse-drawn carts found in places like the USA's Amish country).

Used to be, children were raised with a solid grasp of the physical differences between the sexes. This started with teaching little kids that males and females have different urinary anatomy, and as a result we urinate differently and thus require different setups and fixtures to accommodate our different bodies - urinals for males, toilets with seats in enclosed stalls with toilet paper handy for females.

Used to be, children of both sexes growing up were also taught that girls and women menstruate, sometimes vaginally bleed for other reasons, can get pregnant, give birth, breastfeed, have miscarriages, go through menopause and can have a host of "lady problems" like pregnancy-related nausea & vomiting, frequency of urination, piles and urinary incontinence; cystitis; vaginal infections; childbirth injuries; leaking breasts if newly post-partum or breastfeeding; heavy bleeding occasioning leaks; age-related urinary and fecal incontinence and so on that give female humans myriad reasons to visit/need toilet facilities that go beyond "just peeing" and shitting - and which often cause us to take a longer time when we use these facilities too. For these reasons - and the fact that female urination as well as attending to menstruation and other issues involving our vaginas requires we partially disrobe so that our bottoms and vulvas are bared - it used to be the case that people of both sexes took it for granted that girls and women have a need for special toilet provisions and privacy in public/communal toilets that males don't.

At the same time, kids of both sexes used to be raised with an awareness of social boundaries; a respect for the basic bodily privacy of self and others; an understanding that different people have different needs, standards and feelings around bodily privacy; a basic grasp that outside the privacy of one's own home everyone has to practice some modicum of self-control and regulation; knowledge that not everyone gets everything they want in life at all times (or in many cases ever at all); and awareness that people's rights and wishes in societies often conflict. Moreover, as the concepts of women's rights and civil rights emerged, expanded and became widely accepted, people of both sexes used to be raised to believe that where desires conflict, it's not acceptable or fair to assume that those who are bigger, stronger, more aggressive, more selfish, more entitled, more privileged and in possession of more political power, higher social status and well, balls, should be able to use their greater size, strength, aggression, selfishness, entitlement, privilege, power, social status and balls to ride roughshod over the rights of others who are smaller, weaker, meeker, less selfish, less entitled, with less power, lower social status and no balls.

But in recent decades, something very wrong seems to have occurred with the way that many people have been raised and what they have learned in their formative years, and with what many males already into middle age have now come to believe. As a result, many males nowadays are very blatant in displaying an attitude that says, in essence, wherever I want to go and whatever I want to take must opened up or given to me as my right - girls and women be damned. Though they claim to be some kind of women, and they venerate and imitate what they & other males define as "feminine," to me males like BW and Contrapoints seem to have very little understanding of what being female means, and little respect for girls & women. When the rubber meets the road, as it were, males who say they want to be women almost always put their own desire and compulsion to use female spaces over the desire and need of girls & women to have spaces that are for our sex alone.

I also highly disagree with you that Natalie Wynn looks like a man.

Please C&P where I said Wynn looks like a man. I don't think I did.

Women can have masculine features, in fact there have been natal woman that have been kicked out of the woman's bathroom because they looked "too male"

I've been using female toilet facilities, locker rooms, change rooms and such for nearly 70 years, and I have never heard or seen this happening. Women have always known that many women have "masculine features" and most girls & women have not had an issue with it. We all know that there's a wide variety in the way girls & women look. Moreover, girls & women grow up fully aware that those women who start out life looking "feminine" very often develop "masculine features" when we age.

If your claim that some women have been kicked out of women's facilities for looking too masculine really is true, my hunch is that this has happened only rarely - and mostly in recent years when consumer capitalism and the gender identity movement have brought back sexist sex stereotypes in a big way. And when, for all the talk of "tolerance" and "inclusivity," young people have become more focused than ever on looks & as a result of genderism are unfortunately inclined to make wholly erroneous snap judgments about which sex a person is based on superficial aspects like hair length, clothing style, makeup wearing (or absence), accessory choice, & whether one has long lacquered fingernails.

I personally have been told several times in recent years by genderists that I and many other women past 50 are not real women coz in their view our age, personal style and manner put us outside the narrow parameters that they rely on to define what a woman is & what women should look like. In my view, it's ascribing to such sexist and ageist sex-stereotyped thinking that's the problem - not the fact that many women don't fit the stereotypes that sexists & ageists want to impose on us. Whereas your view seems to be that the solution here is to embrace sexist and ageist thinking even more, so that young males and like BW & Contra who present as "feminine" and "girly" can use ladies loos - and all the female people who don't do femininity but nevertheless need privacy, safety & peace of mind coz of our female bodies (bodies that tend to grow increasingly frail & vulnerable as we grow old & less "feminine") will be left with no place to go.

[–]questioningtw[S] 5 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 5 fun -  (3 children)

I owe you an apology. I misread what you said in your paragraph about the surgeries and hormones. I do think gender dysphoria is a type of disorder and people that suffer from it shouldn't be automatically labeled as freaks and predators because of it.

[–]MarkTwainiac 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Apology accepted!

I do think gender dysphoria is a type of disorder and people that suffer from it shouldn't be automatically labeled as freaks and predators because of it.

I agree. But recognizing and saying someone's sex and pointing out they don't belong in the spaces meant for the opposite sex is not the same as labelling them freaks and predators. At all.

Lots of people have all sorts of mental health disorders and physical disorders. But "gender dysphoria" is the only condition constantly employed by those who sufferer from it as a tool of tyranny and as a truncheon aimed at others, particularly the 51% of the human race who are female. It's the only mental health problem used by males as justification for denying female people basic rights - such as the right to safety, privacy, dignity and peace of mind when attending to our intimate bodily needs in communal settings; the right to fair play in sports; the right to have names - girls, women, female humans - for ourselves that reflect the fact that we have special biology that makes us different to members of your sex; the right not to be forced to lie; the right not to be coerced into playing along with other people's fantasy lives.

Why is this one mental health condition so privileged?

[–]questioningtw[S] 5 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

Do you think with the right kind of mental health care people wouldn't even need to transition? FTMS exist too, so it isn't all MTFS, or o you thik they transition for different reasons?

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

My hunch - and hope - is that yes with the right kind of mental health care, a great many people who now identify as trans would learn to better accept their bodies, appearance and the realities of their sex; would develop far healthier, more robust and resilient self-concepts & much improved self-esteem both in amount & durability; would come to understand where their ideas about, and preoccupation with, restrictive sex stereotypes came from; and would be supported to live in as nonconforming a way as they desire and to realize that in vast numbers of communities in countries like the US and UK they can live happy lives with full social acceptance coz huge swathes of the population got used to men wearing makeup & "women's clothes" and to women with very short hair in trousers who look "butch" many decades ago.

Clearly, therapy for someone (male or female) who is same-sex attracted, developed gender dysphoria in childhood & embraced a trans identity as a result of growing up in a homophobic, conservative home and milieu would be different to the therapy required by a heterosexual adolescent or adult male who has adopted an opposite sex identity coz of the sexual fetish known as AGP that he's been reinforcing on the daily by immersion in sissy porn.

My sense is that most FTMs today as in past decades are motivated by the desire/need to escape from being further sexualized and further sexually objectified, by a whole bunch of internalized misogyny, as well as coz they have a host of other mental health issues they're seeking a surefire and easy fix for.

IMO, anyone who sees a therapist - especially those with "gender" issues - would be best served by one who is well versed in the very different ways that males and females are socialized as well as in human biological sex. And who is well-versed in the various psychoanalytic schools as well as in practical therapies like CBT. And of course, the therapist needs to be a kind, compassionate person who is able to see each client/patient as an individual and not bring their own issues & ideologies into the therapeutic relationship. Unfortunately, all the "gender therapists" I've read about do the opposite.

[–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The issue is that Blaire has no legal distinction from Yaniv when it comes to the women's bathroom. (I know Yaniv is Canadian and Blaire American but I mean in terms of policy we see now and policy TRAs wish to implement.) I respect Blaire for saying that no person with a penis should be in a women's changing room. She knows she is no danger to women but understands the real concerns women have about protecting their spaces. Not a popular stance for trans influencers to take.

[–]worried19 6 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 6 fun -  (24 children)

It's not even just about bathrooms. I can understand taking a hard line stance on that even if I don't agree. But some posters (one in particular) continually goes around saying that all trans women are pedophiles and rapists. Like, dude, seriously? I think it drags the whole site down when people talk that way. Fortunately, it's not many, but it's a bad look for all of us.

[–]jayandharexy gc 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

But some posters (one in particular) continually goes around saying that all trans women are pedophiles and rapists

Isn't this against the site-wide rules? I've reported comments like this and they've been immediately taken down

[–]worried19 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

I'm not sure. I know slurs are against the rules. I've reported a few posters for that. I don't know if comments would get taken down otherwise. I guess I could try reporting to see. Overall, the mods seem to be mostly hands off unless it's something that directly violates the rules.

[–]questioningtw[S] 6 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 6 fun -  (21 children)

I hate that too, and I wish more people would call that out, rape and pedophillia are serious crimes and spewing accusations without any evidence IS being hateful.

I also really don't like it when a few of the posters act lik literally all men are horrible. It is like really? How is that any better then MGTOW who act like all women are evil, because they met some shitty women. I know paterarchy exists, but not all men are horrible.

[–]jayandharexy gc 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

How is that any better then MGTOW who act like all women are evil

The difference is that misogyny kills women and misandry hurts your feelings

[–]questioningtw[S] 6 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, your right.

[–]worried19 5 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 6 fun -  (18 children)

I think a lot of women there have had really horrible and traumatic shit happen to them. There was a poll on how many of us are rape survivors:

https://ovarit.com/o/Women/8657/how-many-times-have-you-been-raped-in-your-lifetime

That doesn't even count molestation or harassment, just rape. I don't blame women for not trusting men. But the same time, I don't believe half of humanity is just evil. Some men are evil, but it can't be all of them.

[–]HouseplantScreaming ethnocentric moralistic imperialist fear mongerer 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Where are these women meant to discuss their views and feelings if they can’t even do it in gender critical spaces?

Where can we say “men are shit” without not all men needing to be brought up? Like I get that not every male is evil but why can’t women who have been hurt by every man in their life have just one space to vent without someone saying they should pipe down?

[–]worried19 5 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 6 fun -  (15 children)

I'm not against them venting about men in general.

My main problem is when all trans women are tagged as evil fetishists, rapists, and pedophiles. We know that's not true.

[–]HouseplantScreaming ethnocentric moralistic imperialist fear mongerer 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

I'm not against them venting about men in general. My main problem is when all trans women are tagged as evil fetishists, rapists, and pedophiles. We know that's not true

I don't blame women for not trusting men. But the same time, I don't believe half of humanity is just evil. Some men are evil, but it can't be all of them.

Lmao so which is it? Not all men or not all men who say they are women?

They’re no different to other men, so I don’t see how the venting is different. Hell, transwomen are the men fighting hardest to strip women of rights.

But regarding where women can and can’t freely feel and vent, where can they?

If NAMALT is gonna be trotted out in supposedly feminist spaces, is there anywhere women can speak about how they feel about men without having someone come along and defend the men, regardless of not every single man ever being evil? Are women supposed to simply keep their wrongthink and frustrations silent? Even in women’s spaces, women can’t freely express themselves..

Do feminist spaces and/or women’s spaces really have a need for NAMALT/not my Nigel commenters?

[–]worried19 5 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 6 fun -  (12 children)

I don't try to police what people can say on Ovarit. As I mentioned, I only ever report for slurs.

But it bothers me when all trans women are tagged as evil predators. Some people there have contempt for trans women that goes beyond anything they post about males in general. That's what I have a problem with. There's at least one poster who even admits that she hates and despises trans women. And it's a bad look for the rest of us. Pro-trans people read that and think GC women really do have a personal vendetta against trans women, even though the vast majority of us do not.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But how can you tell who is and who is not from them?

Chances that someone is - increased, and they have free access to victims and special trans-protections against being prosecuted.

It is mostly men who are rapists and violent, and it is mostly men who are breaking boundaries of female spaces are who likely to attack - and for safeguarding purposes we are not letting ANY men in women's safe spaces.

Same with this, maybe some transwomen are good, maybe majority of them are good, but abusers and fetishists are abusing poorly written laws and abusing their position and trans status - and there is NO way to tell the difference between them. So for safeguarding purposes we should not let ANY of them in women's safe spaces, we should create special safe spaces for them, like in some European countries - prisons have safe sections in them for gay, gender non-conforming and other vulnureable men. Same can be made for transwomen as well. Make them safe by creating safe space for them, instead of making them not that much safer by destroying women's safe spaces.

[–]questioningtw[S] 6 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

I have luckily never been raped, but have been sexually harassed and had men grope me. I think women are pretty much forced to compartmentalize. Like yes, I HATE those men, but I can't believe all men are like that.