QT: Do you understand why women need single sex spaces?

submitted by Penultimate_Penance from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 5 insightful - 9 fun5 insightful - 8 fun6 insightful - 9 fun -  (84 children)

I am a natal female, and honestly I see no point for sexsegregated spaces. For instance in a bathroom, there are already stalls, so why should it matter who is in the next stall if they are not harassing you? I live in the US and stalls have huge gaps on the bottom and top of the walls which I hate, so there is little privacy anyway regardless who else is in the restroom. As for locker rooms, you are changing in front of random strangers to begin with. Why should it matter who that stranger is? I think locker rooms should also have stalls because there are people who are uncomfortable changing in front of others regardless of the sex of everyone in the facility. This would solve a lot of issues.

Also, we consider trans women a group of women, not a group of men.

[–]BiologyIsReal 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (83 children)

Well, good for you for not finding sex-seggregated spaces necessary, but why do you get to decide for other women what we should get comfortable with?

Also, we consider trans women a group of women, not a group of men.

According to this study males who identifies as trans retain male pattern of crimminality, though. It's worth pointing out the authors only evaluated males who undergone full "SRS", i.e. likely the ones who are more commited to "pass" as women.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 3 insightful - 8 fun3 insightful - 7 fun4 insightful - 8 fun -  (82 children)

Well, good for you for not finding sex-seggregated spaces necessary, but why do you get to decide for other women what we should get comfortable with?

OK, if you're changing in front of a bunch of random strangers, why does the sex of those strangers matter? You still don't know them and their intentions. Anyway, stalls without gaps with those turn locks that say "vacant" in green and "occupied" in red are the answer. I don't see what difference does it make whose in the next stall if no one can see you anyway.

According to this study males who identifies as trans retain male pattern of crimminality, though. It's worth pointing out the authors only evaluated males who undergone full "SRS", i.e. likely the ones who are more commited to "pass" as women.

If someone is harassing you in the bathroom, their behavior is the problem, not their presence. In that case you should report them.

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If we can reduce women's odds of being sexually harassed or straight up assaulted by roughly 90% in locker rooms and changing rooms by making them single sex why wouldn't we?

Also as for the just report them argument, please explain to me what good that will do? Do you honestly believe that there is a chance in hell that most women will see any justice whatsoever when a man gropes her, rapes her, leers at her, flashes his junk and so on? Allowing trans male bodied people in the women's single sex spaces will just makes it even more likely that she won't be believed. Right now women who step forward about sexual harassment or god forbid straight up assault are called crazy, hysterical, lying harpies and now we get to add 'transphobic' to the list if she is unlucky enough to be sexually harassed or assaulted by a transwomen.

"Less than 1% of rapes lead to felony convictions. At least 89% of victims face emotional and physical consequences."

"Men are responsible for the vast majority of sexual violence in America. According to a 2010 National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, 90 percent of perpetrators of sexual violence against women are men. Moreover, when men are victims of sexual assault (an estimated one in 71 men, and one in six boys), 93 percent reported their abuser was a man. It’s true that women also assault men, but even when victims of all genders are combined, men perpetrate 78 percent of reported assaults."

Edit: Added if at beginning of first sentence.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I feel significantly more comfortable changing in a room with a bunch of random females than a bunch of random people, and I think a lot of women and girls (especially girls) feel the same.

And if someone’s behavior is the problem, not allowing their presence in the first place solves and prevents the problem. We shouldn’t have to report them, because we shouldn’t have to experience it in the first place. It’s not as if it’s common for there to be issues of sexual harassment, discomfort, or assault amongst females in female specific spaces.

It’s funny, I actually don’t care about sharing bathrooms with TW, I do feel uncomfortable sharing locker rooms, but Even of i didn’t, I would never be as dismissive of the women and girls who do care as you are. You being comfortable matters less than the women who are uncomfortable. Not that you matter less, but since you’re a female yourself, your ability to have a safe space isn’t compromised by not allowing males into that space, your rights and safety aren’t diminished if males aren’t allowed, but you seem to have no problem with taking away the rights of other females. That’s just baffling to me.

[–][deleted] 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Even of i didn’t, I would never be as dismissive of the women and girls who do care as you are.

This is a core ethical test (imo it fails). GB has no ethical grounds to set social convention for all females according to her personal comfort levels. Not sure why this is so common in libfem circles, except maybe the class buffer (the prominence of libfem in prestigious universities which are completely removed from the social realities of most women on the planet).

[–]BiologyIsReal 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

OK, if you're changing in front of a bunch of random strangers, why does the sex of those strangers matter? You still don't know them and their intentions. Anyway, stalls without gaps with those turn locks that say "vacant" in green and "occupied" in red are the answer. I don't see what difference does it make whose in the next stall if no one can see you anyway.

I really don't know what to tell you. It's really hard to believe that you don't understand why people would be more uncomfortable changing besides people of the opposite sex. Is that a new rule of sex positivity? People shall not feel shame when naked in front of anyone because that is prudish? Then again, you often complain about the gaps in bathroom's stalls and think locker rooms should have individual stalls. So, you obviously care about privacy, which is why I find your position so odd.

And besides privacy's matter, women have to worry about safety issues. As other users have said, most violent crimminals are males and sex predators are overwhelming males. And men have a physical advantage over women if a fight happens.

If someone is harassing you in the bathroom, their behavior is the problem, not their presence. In that case you should report them.

When you report such incidents it's already too late. Women are quite often either disbelieved or blamed for their assaults. Males often get away with such behaviours, too. By barring males from entering intimate places like women's bathrooms, locker rooms, etecetera you're decreasing the possibility of harrasment, rapes, spy cams, etcetera. Creeps don't care about respecting boundaries, but surely they care about not getting caught. Until transgenderism gained so much support, a male would have a pretty hard time justifying their presence in women's bathrooms, etcetera. However, once you make special exceptions for certain kind of males all this protection is gone. What is more, now in certain places trans identified males who are convicted for sex crimes or violence against women can be sent to women's prison, where they can keep abusing women.

Here are some relevant links about these issues:

Single-sex toilets needed to overcome girls' barriers to education,' says Unesco

Unisex changing rooms put women at danger of sexual assault, data reveals

Women are losing access to public toilets 'by stealth' amid a boom in gender-neutral loos, say experts

Why was convicted paedophile allowed to move to a female jail?

Female prisoners at greater risk of sexual assault by transgender inmates, High Court hears