QT: Where are the “trans men” athletes winning against men?

submitted by BiologyIsReal from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]worried19 4 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 5 fun -  (3 children)

There are some trans competitors in male sports. I don't think any of them are breaking records against natal males, but at least a few are competitive.

https://www.olympicchannel.com/en/stories/news/detail/transgender-boxer-pat-manuel-makes-history-with-first-professional-win

Testosterone can do a lot. It can probably give natal females the upper body strength to be competitive in some sports. Of course it can't change anything about height or limb length or lung capacity, so I would imagine there are plenty of sports where trans men still have a huge disadvantage.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

So one trans-identified female won one boxing match. I'm not a fan of boxing, but I know a bit about the history & customs of boxing precisely because it's one of the sports most notorious for corruption, cheating, grandstanding, bullshitting, bragging, scandals & larger than life personalities. And coz boxing has always been the most macho of sports that celebrates male aggression & cunning as well as one strongly tied to seediness, celebrity, organized crime, big money, betting, misogyny & civil rights. The bios & struggles of boxers like James Braddock, Jake LaMotta, Muhammed Ali (Cassius Clay), Joe Louis & Mike Tyson are fascinating, as are the stories of the rivalries & friendships between fighters like Louis & Max Schmeling. Although I've never been to a boxing match, I've watched a lot of films about bozing that have left an indelible impression on me: Joe and Max, Ali, Raging Bull, The Fighter, Cinderella Man, Million Dollar Baby & Muhammad Ali's Greatest Fight - about Ali's suit against the US government for not recognizing that he had grounds to be a conscientious objector to military service based on his Islamic religious convictions, which was finally decided in his favor. Even though Mike Tyson is a convicted rapist, I found the spoken memoir about his life that Spike Lee directed, Mike Tyson: Undisputed Truth, to be very moving.

But I've gotten off topic. Against the backdrop of what I know about the boxing world, sorry, I have to say I don't find a single win in one solitary bout credible evidence that trans-identified females are competitive with males. It's long been a tradition for promoters to rig fights & pay boxers to lose. Some boxers actually do nothing but lose bouts so as to provide talented, promising up-and-coming boxing prospects with stellar records.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Opponent knew he is fighting female, and it is some low rank random boxer in a super-light category, where healthy males almost never can get, opponent was 170 cm and 47 kg weight (I am heavier!), so strongly underweight. While Pat Manuel was an olympic level boxer in female category. Hugo Aguilar was Pat's opponent (this one https://www.tapology.com/fightcenter/fighters/204409-hugo-aguilar ), Hugo's achievements are so far - 1 win with KO in semi-professional match and 8 loses in professional matches. Interesting that this makes him ranked in top 60% of boxers in the category of super-light, as most of them seems to be losing to anyone except lighter men than themselves, and in bottom 10% of all categories. So it was "one of worst males fighting decently good female". And still it was not KO and fight was not complete destruction of Hugo, like it was in his fights against male opponents.

So I would not consider Pat's winning as anything special or paid (thought, I would not be surprised in corruption, as this fight seems to be promoted and making headlines months before the fight as "possible first transgender win", dooming Hugo to lose before the fight). And most likely a lot of olympic level female boxers would win against Hugo.

At same time, it was the only professional Pat's match and Pat never had a match since.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for this detailed information! It really fleshes out the picture.