QT: Where are the “trans men” athletes winning against men?

submitted by BiologyIsReal from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I normally argue against bringing up DSDs in convos about transgenderism. However as the Caster Semenya case illustrates, in the area of athletics there is now alignment in the arguments for participation in women's sports made on behalf of XY DSD males with fully functioning testes, male levels of T & working androgen receptors and on behalf of trans-identified male athletes. Semenya & Semenya's team have long argued that the only thing that should determine eligiblity for participating in female sports is having legal identity documents stating one's sex is female or F.

Semenya's side argues it's a human rights violation for sports governing bodies to require XY DSD athletes like Semenya to take drugs to suppress the T that their testes make in order to compete in women's sports. Semenya's case is going to be head by the European Court of Human Rights in the summer, June I think.

Some trans activists, such as Dawn Ennis, the AGP trans-identified male editor of Outsports, have argued on Semenya's behalf in media appearances. Specifically, Ennis has said that when sports governing bodies require male athletes with male-only DSDs like Semenya to suppress their T by any means in order to be eligible to compete in female sports, it amounts to "legally mandated genital mutilation." Requiring athletes like Semenya to take T suppressing drugs specifically in order to compete has also been characterized as "forced pharmaceutical self-harm."

This of course totally contradicts many of the other claims that trans activists & Ennis specifically constantly make, namely that when trans-identified males take cross-sex hormones, it's not only completely harmless - it's necessary, beneficial & "life saving."

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I felt the same about DSD in general, but the whole Semenya saga and the "hyperandrogenism" was a joke from the let's go. It's been a while since I learn from him, but I think at the beginning the Media said he was a woman with adrenal hyperplasia (or maybe I just assumed the adrenal hyperplasia thing because that made more sense than the reality, really). Though, the instant I saw a picture of him I knew something was off.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

I'm pretty up on the Semenya story, but I don't recall Semenya being portrayed as having CAH, a condition (or rather two conditions) I think most of the press over the course of Semenya's career have been too stupid to understand or portray. The media have usually portrayed Semenya as a "woman with hyperandrogenism" or a "woman with naturally high levels of testosterone" for some mysterious, nameless reason no one knows & no one understands.

Pictures of Semenya made you think something was off? You bigot! Here's a vid of Semenya when Semenya was on T suppressing drugs. I've never seen someone so clearly female displaying all the hallmarks of having been raised & socialized female, such as the ladylike way Caster sits & the bashful way Caster avoids bragging. Semenya even proves Semenya's libfeminist credentials by dissing female people, calling us "boring" & "weak" https://youtu.be/Hvg50P4FwTk

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I must have assumed the CAH thing after hearing he was a "woman with high levels of testosterone" then.

Well, I've just watched the video and I'm going to sound like a bigger "bigot" now. There is no way anyone would mistaken him for a woman. I mean, really, you would think he would try to mantain his own charade, but nope.

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Women with CAH had high levels of testosterone before birth. After birth we just have virilization of body and sometimes more testosterone (I have, but it is due to mistreatment). We have excessive amounts of other androgenic hormones, but not too much.

We have high excessive amount of testosterone and other adrogenes if we are not treated properly or not treated at all, especially as infants (and it is deadly as well, previously mosly boys were surviving, as girls were getting same treatment as boys - and it was wrong one, so now doctors require extra tests to find are we male or female to save our lives - it was done with me, for example).

So if we are not treated or mistreated - we will have more testosterone, if we were treated well - everything is fine. I have issues, but they are connected with mistreatment - I was being medically "cured" from being a lesbian.

And it is women with LOAH who have higher testosterone levels even if treated well, but LOAH is like PCOS and is not intersex condition (even thought TRA are trying to make it one for decades now).

Here nice and neutral non-political medical article about my condition: https://www.yourhormones.info/endocrine-conditions/congenital-adrenal-hyperplasia/

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

LOAH is late-onset, right? Which is also known as NCAH, or non-classical adrenal hyperplasia, & accounts for the majority of cases of CAH. Whereas the other kind that's present at birth is called "classical CAH"?

Apart from early infancy, do girls & women with either (or any) kind of CAH ever have testosterone in the male range? Or is it high for women, but still in the female range? My impression is that the latter is the case. However, it's hard to find specific numbers. A lot of the research papers I've read just speak of "hyperandrogenism" - or if they do give hormone levels, I've found the numbers & their significance hard to make sense of coz of my own deficiencies in parsing the data. Plus, research papers that do give hormone levels seem always to be of women already being treated, so they don't tell what the levels were upon diagnosis.

Thanks for the info. Sorry for what you've been through. Malpractice & hideous abuses in medicine are far too common, especially in the case of female patients. But glad your CAH got properly diagnosed & treated.

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Late-oneset is not CAH at all. I still don't know why it is called like that in English.

CAH is "congenital adrenal hypoplasia" - we are lacking adrenal hormone aldosterone and low production of cortisone because of mutation of one gene. It is often important to know sex of an infant as if not treated - female infant can die or live as disabled. If not treated - body will try to make cortisol but fail and produse adrenal hormones instead. If not treated long we will die due to inability of consuming salts.

LOAH starts appearing late in life - for girls after 15+ years, for boys can be undetected. It is happening because of mutation in same gene but they have enough aldosterone but lack cortisol and lacking other hormone. They live fine without treatment, just have more testosterone. In general it is very similar to PCOS but affects both males and females. You can't call it "intersex", as it is not congenital and may or may not develop in people with that gene mutation. As with CAH it more affecting females than males.

In USSR healthcare they are called completely differently and unrelated. We have different lack of hormones, different mutations, we need different treatment and have different complications. Salt-Wasting CAH women often have "secondary PCOS". It is not PCOS but have similar symptomes - I have one. In USSR practice it is unrelated to PCOS too. PCOS is reason of condition, while secondary PCOS is just symptome.

Salt-wasting CAH is the only "intersex" variant of it. We born with virilized bodies and very big clit. Obviously big clit is just big clit - functions and look like clit, have nothing to do with penis. LOAH and mild-CAH or CAH in males have little or no effect on kids until later in life.

Male kids with SW CAH can be untreated almost to month, while females will die. That's why I was screened if I have ovaries. USSR medicine was both most progressive and most stereotype-leaning. So I got lucky. They easily found my condition and treated me well...but then they found I am lesbian and that was a horror story of them trying to cure it.

Sorry if I am being to messy, I had hard day today.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Late-oneset is not CAH at all. I still don't know why it is called like that in English.

Sorry. Not trying to be disrespectful. I'm in the USA, & here all the sources lump these genetic conditions involving the adrenals together. For example, the USA's National Institutes of Health says

CAH refers to a group of genetic disorders that affect the adrenal glands.

And goes on to say that these disorders are caused by different genetic mutations. The NIH says the different forms of CAH manifest in different ways, causing different symptom profiles, but usually result in too little cortisol, too little aldosterone & an excess of androgens.

Classic CAH is more severe than the nonclassic form. It can be life threatening in newborns if it is not diagnosed. Classic CAH can be caused by either 21-hydroxylase or 11-hydroxylase deficiency.

Nonclassic CAH is sometimes called late-onset CAH. It is a milder form of the disorder that usually is diagnosed in late childhood or early adolescence. Sometimes, people have nonclassic CAH and never know it. This form of CAH is almost always caused by 21-hydroxylase deficiency.

https://www.nichd.nih.gov/health/topics/cah/conditioninfo

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, I know this. It is just different health issues, with different treatment, different symptomes, different comllications and different cause. It just two different adrenal deficiencies. It is like calling all heart diseases as congenital heart defects. Like I have 21-h mutation, but it is different one that have people with LOAH - as they have 21-h mutated too, but in different way than people with CAH. And main lacking hormone is different - we have some cortisol but have no aldosterone. While people with LOAH have no corrisol but some (or full) aldosterone. I am taking those hormones (and currently contraceptives due to secondary PCOS) whole my life.

LOAH is not congenital, as it is not visible at birth and their mutation may or may not cause LOAH. People with LOAH born completely normal male and female looking. That's why it is stupid to call it intersex condition - or if add LOAH - then PCOS should be added too, as PCOS has genetic pre-disposition too.

All 40 intersex conditions are happening in around 0.18% of population, so each one is around 0.004% on average. While LOAH is diagnosed in 1.55% of population. So it is like elephant in the room.

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Semenya has 5ard, not CAH. Males with CAH would look perfectly male, maybe shorter. Females with CAH can look more masculine, our testosterone levels are lower than ones of transmen, but often slighltly higher than norm, and we still can get pregnant, etc.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes the court documents show that Semenya has 5-ARD. Significantly, though 5-ARD occurs in both males & females, it only affects sex development in males. Most females with 5-ARD will go their whole lives unaware they have it, because it seems to have no affect on females in any way. Which just goes to show that the claim that Semenya is "a female athlete with a DSD" is a total crock; Semenya has a DSD that only males can have. The condition itself confirms that Semenya is male. Apart from the appearance of their genitals, & absence of facial & body hair, males with 5-ARD are otherwise unaffected & have good health. Since their testes produce normal sperm, some have fathered children - though usually after medical intervention or with some assistance.

[–]valleyoftherogue 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It is all speculation of what he has, and I am sick and tired of the lies being told about Semenya claiming this MAN is a "woman" of any type. He was outed as 46 XY with DSD, and the DSD means nothing. It is the Y chromosome that makes him a cheater.