GC: Can you give me a definition of male or female that does not exclude those that can not produce or release gametes, have undergone an operation to surgically remove sex organs, etc?

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[–]MarkTwainiac 17 insightful - 6 fun17 insightful - 5 fun18 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

Oh stop with this nonsense.

Your dinner is getting cold.

I am seriously regretting conceiving you, carrying you in my uterus for 9-10 months, risking my life and health to give birth to you, and the myriad pelvic floor issues and pain I am still suffering decades later from giving birth to you.

The only reason I put up with your batshit posts is that I feel guilty for all the times I dropped you on your head when you were an infant. Clearly, the chickens have come home to roost.

Love, Mom

[–]censorshipment 13 insightful - 6 fun13 insightful - 5 fun14 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

Wtf is this shit? You want to remove biology/anatomy from the definitions of the sexes? Just take the L.

No person alive is here without a female's egg being fertilized by a male's sperm. A trans woman's sperms aren't eggs. A trans man's eggs aren't sperms.

[–]grixitperson 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

well said.

[–]kwallio 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

https://colinwright.substack.com/p/sex-is-not-a-spectrum

Not that you would actually read it because you never read anything anyone posts.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

We’ve literally had this exact same question like a month ago. The actual definitions already work. It’s been explained so often, especially lately. The answers are going to be what they always are. Nobody is rendered sexless or less/more of a sex.

Mods: can we please add “basic understanding of biology/reproductive function” to the rules? because this is getting ridiculous. I understand not everyone will agree to the dictionary definitions of certain words, but even if that’s the case, people should understand the basic functions of the human body and how sex works (and what sex means), even if they don’t agree on the definitions of “woman” and “man” and some other words, they should at least be able to comprehend what the words are supposed to mean.

[–]grixitperson 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It's tempting, but this is not an academic level debate venue. However, it might be good to put together an introductory text to refer people to.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It doesn’t have to be an academic level debate venue. The fact that it’s not is why we should have the rule. We have a rule about understanding basic feminism, why not about basic biological function? Nobody is debating on these types of posts, all we do is explain over and over and over again how human bodies function and develop. So by not having a rule about people who participate here understanding basic things we learn before middle school, you’re turning it into educational venue, or at least allowing it to become one. I didn’t say that people should understand the delicate intricacies of the human body, I said a basic, elementary, understanding. I’m not saying all of the posts that discuss these things are frustrating or don’t belong, some make sense. But then we get these types, and it’s just ridiculous. Debate why words are defined how they are sure, debate what constitutes sex sure, but to have post after post of people who apparently know nothing about humans, not even how their own bodies function? They don’t even tie it into the subject of gcdebatesqt, it’s just “explain this, define that, how does this work”. It’s not relevant.

[–]kwallio 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And then they say they'll only read "trans affirming sources" whatever that means. Its frustrating.

[–]BiologyIsReal 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Male reproductive system is intended to produce sperm at some point in the life of a male individual. Female reproductive system is intended to produce eggs at some point in the life of a female individual. This fact remain true despite that sometimes things go wrong and some people are unable to produce gametes, or only can produce abnormal gametes or a lower number of gametes than normal. The fact that some people undergo gonadectomies doesn't mean their bodies weren't/aren't built around the potential capability of producing a certain type of gamete.

If this and other users' posts don't convince you, then you could tell us how babies are made under the "sex is a spectrum" model in this thread. For some "mysterious" reason I've not gotten many replies from QT.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don’t know if you are sincere, but sex is defined by the type of gamete someone’s reproductive anatomy is developed to produce. If someone has parts of that anatomy removed or changed or even if it doesn’t fully develop, our bodies still begin developing around either eggs or sperm. I feel like this video explains it really well.

https://youtu.be/XN2-YEgUMg0

This definition includes all three of your groups.

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Any definition must include first two points, thought.

Kids of both sexes pre-puberty are not producing any gametes.

Women after menopause and men after andropause are not producing any gametes.

Women's periods/menstruation is periodic and not dependent on our will releasing and maturing of an egg. So we don't produce them all the time (plus all our eggs we have from birth, so we not producing them at all, only releasing and maturing them one by one). And periods can be irregular because of nerves or health issues, periods can stop due to pregnancy, and so on.

So first two points MUST be included in definition of a woman and man, as 100% of men and women have first point and 100% of women have second point.

Around 15-25% of all women also have issues with health and need reproductive organs to be removed at one point in life.

So any definition must include point 3 as well - or up to 1/8 of population will be not defined.

I have strong feeling that people asking those questions are either males or very young females - so they have no idea about female anatomy at all and thinking that male anatomy is standart and is universal and that women's reproductive systems are similar to theirs.

[–]kwallio 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

We've been over the definition of sex like 20 times already with this poster. Whoever they are they are either terminally stupid or a troll.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The existing definitions already do. Stop posting here with questions that you have ignored the answer to previously. You are wasting our time and your own.

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Can you please give me a definition of male or female that does not exclude these groups?:

1- someone that can not produce/release any gametes

2- someone that can produce/release gametes but only on certain occasions

3- someone that has surgically removed their sex organs entirely meaning they have no primary sex organs and gametes to determine their sex

Re 1: all children prior to puberty cannot produce/release mature gametes. Same goes for all female people after menopause.

Re 2: female people in our reproductive years can only produce/release gametes on certain occasions. These occasions are known as ovulation, which usually occurs once every 28 days.

Only post-pubertal male humans can produce/release gametes in the hundreds of millions with each ejaculation on a 24/7/365 basis from puberty until death. You seem to think the human male mode constitutes the norm for our species. Your POV outs you as a blinkered sexist and male supremacist. It also strongly suggests that you yourself are male.

Female humans typically mature and release 13 gametes in any 12 month period in our "reproductive years." In female humans, the "reproductive years" are generally a 40-year span that occurs from the time we are circa age 11 to the time we are circa age 51.

Re 3: someone that has surgically removed their sex organs entirely meaning they have no primary sex organs and gametes.

That's me! I had health conditions that required me to have my primary sex organs - ovaries, Fallopian tubes and uterus - surgically removed. But funny thing is, the children I carried and gave birth to did not suddenly cease existing as a result of my surgeries. Nor did all the sexism, sexual harassment, sex discrimination, sexual assaults and such I've faced throughout my life magically vanish from the record and my memory once I had those surgeries.

Moreover I was able to have these surgeries without any cutting whatsoever of my abdominal wall and muscles because, guess what, I have a vagina that the surgeons were able to use to access and remove my other female reproductive organs.

Today in 2021, the different COVID risk profile I have compared to males of the same advanced age due to my XX chromosomes did not change coz I had my ovaries, uterus and Fallopian tubes removed years ago. My surgeries also have not caused actuaries to change their predictions that I will live several years longer than a male born my same birth year.

I have a grandchild on the way. My children's ability to reproduce clearly has not been affected by the fact that I've had my primary sex organs removed and - as is the case for all women over a certain age - cannot mature and release any gametes any more.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Just want to add here that there are many women on earth who've have had their ovaries, Fallopian tubes and uteri removed who've never conceived or borne children, and they are just as much female as I am.

Similarly, there are hundreds of millions of girls and women alive in the world today who've experienced removal/reduction of their labias and clits due to FGM or cosmetic surgeries. These girls and women are also 100% female.

[–]grixitperson 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There are individuals whose bodies, for one reason or another, do not produce the gametes that they were meant for. But we still know what they were meant for.

You are tedious.

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Are you not tired of asking this very same question every month?

The regular definition of sex is covering all those situations because first two situations are happening in life of ALL women, so obviously definition must include those situations (you are male, so you don't know this, right?).

Definitions are same old:

Male is an organism that is developing in order to support and produce small movable gametes.

Female is an organism that is developing in order to support and produce big immovable gametes.

Those definitions are including 100% of men and 100% of women, and even 100% of intersex people. Those definitions are broad and very inclusive. By them I am (intersex woman) is equally female as any other female.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Every month people here answering on same question, but looks like answers are never being read.

[–]wokuspokus 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Easy. Male: an animal who went through the developmental process in the mother’s womb to have the anatomy that evolved to produce small gametes.

Female: an animal that went through the developmental process in the mother’s womb to have the anatomy that evolved to produce large gametes.

In these definitions, whether the sex organs have been removed, or whether the organs are not fully functional is irrelevant, as the definition is solely based on the development of the fetus.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Twelve days ago when you asked this question, I said that you

keep pretending that to be male or female means an individual person, other animal or plant must be able to produce/release gametes at every single moment over the course of their life span. This is not how it works, and by now you should know this.

Sexually reproducing organisms typically produce or release gametes only at certain times over the course of their own life cycles - after they've reached sexual maturity. In the case of female humans and many other female animals, the ability to release gametes only lasts until a certain age after which females naturally lose our potential capacity to reproduce.

Babies and children can't produce or release gametes yet, but they still are either male or female. Most women over 51 or so can't release eggs any more; this means we are in a natural state for a female of our species, not that we are no longer female. Ask your mum, or your gran.

Moreover, most female animals and plants as well as some male ones produce or release gametes only at certain times on the calendar. Human females, for example, release an egg once every 28 days, an average of 13 a year. A female canine, by contrast, will be in heat once or twice a year. I've read that female skunks only release eggs in response to certain aggressive, rapey behavior from male skunks. Lots of male plants only produce gametes in the spring or fall; hence, seasonal pollen - and seasonal allergies.

The idea that plants and animals only have a sex if they are currently capable of producing or releasing gametes seems to rest on the mistaken assumption that all members of all sexually-reproducing plants and animals species are or must be capable of producing or releasing gametes 24/7/365 and at any age throughout the entirety of their life cycle. This seems to reflect a POV that regards post-pubescent human males as the norm not just for human females, but for all other sexually-reproducing animals and plants too. This is a POV that is at once sexist, ageist and speciesist.

Other people said similar things. Here's the thread: https://saidit.net/s/GCdebatesQT/comments/7iso/gc_what_are_the_issues_with_defining_sex_as_both/

[–]anfd 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not sure what you're looking for, and this answer probably isn't it, but I think you're looking for something that is doesn't really exist in any meaningful sense. I think you're looking for a 100% waterproof definition without any corner cases, one that would allow you to definitively counter someone who says "it's a spectrum" etc.

I'm not a biologist, but my understanding is that biology isn't a thing where you can meaningfully have that. You cannot find such a definition for what a species is, for example — or life, for that matter: when does a chemical reaction become "life"?

You can tell that cats and dogs are different species, but what about a population of a species that used to be one unit, but now has split into two, maybe for some geographical reason — let's say an earthquare opened a chasm that split the population in two and now they can't get to each other any more. Over time they will start evolving apart based on chance that's a part of evolution.

So when do they form two different species? Is it at the point when they can't make fertile offpring anymore (even though they might be able to make infertile offspring)? Is it at the point where they could make fertile offspring (by way of insemination in a lab for example), but in the wild they won't, because their mating season or mating rituals have changed so much that they don't "recognize" each other as potential mates? Etc.

I don't think there's a "gotcha" style answer to the question, and I think your question is similar. In any case these things will never be resolved through logical argument on this level.

But this cuts both ways. Of course anyone, who argues that in order to have a case for sex at all you need to have a 100% waterproof definition with no corner cases, has equally misunderstood what the phenomenon they're discussing is about. There's always going to be room for choosing — opportunistically or not — to emphasize the "islands of stability" (Stephen Jay Gould's term) on the one hand, and "it's all fuzzy" on the other.

[–]levoyageur718293 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"Female" - the category of person whose assertion of being a transwoman would be considered invasive and appropriative.